Just based on viewing those videos, I’d have to say the SU-37 is the one I’d like to be in the most if I had to. Shame we didn’t develop a supersonic Harrier though, still my favourite.
SU-30 hands down! (SU-37 double loop…wow!) off axis control is astonishing!!! F-22 makes too many flight performance compromises (airframe) for a smaller radio-wave (radar) cross section. The Typhoon agility is impressive as well.
Su 37 Best Of The Best. It’s extremly flexible and has more math and physics than it’s competitors.
Again that’s my opinion only.
The other ones F 22 and Eurofighter are in my opinion somehow behind for the moment.
There is no doubt that the Americans and Europeans are fully capable to develop similar technologies in a short period of time.
All of them echant the eye of the specialist and show us how the mankind is capable to make progress even though is in miliitary area.
Whishing them all good luck with their new projects, and to make the air transportation more safe for all of us.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to express my thoughts.
I dont care what the specs for any of those planes are but that blue plane, i think the su-30 completely destroyed all of them. There is no denying it. The F-22 couldnt even come close to that. Who ever denies it is a moron.
The funny thing is, the F-22 can carry only 2,000lb (910 kg) weapons in its internal bay. All other load such as weapons or fuel tanks has to be carried outside. But as soon as something is mounted on the outside of the plane, it loses its stealth capabilities. Besides that, its aerodynamically efficiency is decreased, which results in less performance.
It is great to see these planes being built now, i’m sure we can all agree that these are the birds we dreamt of as kids! All of these planes are amazing this is my first time seeing the su-37 and it is INCREDIBLE!!!! Double loop, badass tailslides, and awesome stalls! I have seen the raptor demo and can say you should check it out live ASAP! Good luck to everyone!God bless America!
I think russians and SU are amazing. When will we start learn from them and become more friendly to russian brothers? God bless America and Mother Russia.
Yes, the US always have built nice weather planes (F-16 at first)or big, under powered tech-monsters (like F/A-18E, F-111), with great features, but only one difference to the optimized load and configuration is killing the high cost dream (like the compromize for the stealth due to its limitted bay volume … and they didn’t learn from the past, forgot the lesosns from korea and vietnam, that with little effort BVR is absorbed, and close combat is important. So, no question the Raptor is already the third.
The first? For me, the situation and the pilot will decide. So India and Europe have the best fighters! (SU-30MKI is the best of the family)
One important factor everybody who has made a comment seems to forget! Yes manuverbility is very important. Raptor wins top down for following reasons. 1) Is you cant be seen you have a amazing advantage of first shot. 2) American pilots who fly Raptors are far superior compared to Russian and or european pilots. These 2 factors alone negate manuverability.
– I have read articles about the F-22 and the Su-30’s, and Su-30’s enthusiast based superiority on manuevarability which does not even make F-22 inferior either; but the real issue in an actual air war nowadays, is who can see first and shot first. Everything becomes moot… In a war nowadays pilots would prefer exploiting their advantage if they have and they will always think of surviving the conflict & go home. So why fight in fair dogfight if you can avoid it.
- F-22 will not be put in service if it is not worth it’s cost and it is not necessary. It’s predecessors, the F-15 & F-16 has already out-lived its usefulness, although no any fighter planes have really bested it in actual combat. But they are now old planes which needs replacement, and it’s replacement must be better. The cost in the development of the F-22 & with the U.S air forces tradition for air superiority will never tolerate such a proud history be tarnished by an unreliable replacement.
The issue on manueverability is a stuff for air show but not for real air superioty combat - that is to wipe out the enemey threat from both the air and land and sea. That is how I understand the need for being able to see first and shot first before being detected. Actuallt the stunts of the both the Su-37 & F-22 proves nothing because for them to entertain the enthusiast it has to fly quite slow to be seen. But if stealthiness is the issue, they should not be seen - correct me if I am wrong.
I love we get these comments about us learning from the russians about thrust vectoring. Dosent anyone remember the early 90’s we had the x-31(wow looks like the eurofighter), the f-15 ACTIVE(wow looks like the su-37), the f-16 matv, and the f-18 harv. With us built radars the goal is to not get into dogfights its air dominace. If it were to come down to a close in dogfight we are letting the missles do the work with helmet mounted cueing. Thrust vectoring is great for airshows but do you think an su-37 or hundreds could actually dominate any monder countrys air defenses? Not a chance they will just light up every radar screen and be sitting ducks. The f-22 will supercruise over a battle space using its sensors and stealth to get a godseye view of whats going on and send it to every asset in the area to dominate. The mair reason for thrust vectoring on the f-22 is when your crusing at 60,000 ft traditional aircraft have a much larger turning radius. When your flying 1,000 miles an hour at 60,000 ft the thrust vectoring makes this a much more efficent. But I’m not suprised to hear the russians invented thrust vectoring I think a lot of the people on hear are from the propaganda ministry and cant wait for mother russia to rise again.
sorry for the spelling errors it just makes me mad to read the Vladimir Putin Russian superiority. That man is bad news and you know he is wanting the “Good Old Days” to come back.
>early 90’s we had the x-31(wow looks like the eurofighter)
Wanna know why? Because X-31 (VECTOR program) was a joint venture between the US Navy, Germany’s defense procurement agency BWB, Boeing’s Phantom Works, and the European Aeronautic, Defense and Space Company based in Germany. EADS, the same company that built the Eurofighter.
See the left of the two flags on the tail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rockwell-MBB_X-31_vectorpaddles.jpg
The X-31 was built by Rockwell and German company Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm, which is today part of EADS.
I know that but lets be honest, who do you think bears the financial burder for every international project. ex. International Space Station. Granted, International cooperation is great but I think we have let this go way too far. This sums up the project
Program Management
An international test organization of about 110 people, managed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA—redesignated ARPA from March 1993 to 1996), conducted the flight tests at Dryden and Palmdale. NASA was responsible for flight test operations, aircraft maintenance, and research engineering after the project moved to Dryden. As the research flight program matured, the test organization declined in size to approximately 60 persons.
The X-31 was the first international experimental aircraft development program administered by a U.S government agency and was a key effort of the NATO Cooperative Research and Development Program.
The ITO director and NASA’s X-31 project manager at Dryden was Gary Trippensee.
I’m not tryinng to argue. I think that the Eurofighter is kick ass big time but when people say the europeans and americans should take vectored thrust lessons from the Russians that sould like a post right out of the Putin cheerleading section.
Eric
Aug 22nd, 2007 at 7:00 am
One important factor everybody who has made a comment seems to forget! Yes manuverbility is very important. Raptor wins top down for following reasons. 1) Is you cant be seen you have a amazing advantage of first shot. 2) American pilots who fly Raptors are far superior compared to Russian and or european pilots. These 2 factors alone negate manuverability.
- Just a note on your comments here. The F22 may well be the stealthiest of the three (indeed the EF2000 isn’t stealth at all) and i agree, that presents a major advantage in engagements from a distance (out of visual range) but in regards to the foolish and flippant comment about american pilots being superior made by this Eric character, my answer to that is that in my experience (one of unique insight) I have known very many USAF pilots and ground crew who care more about their image and ego and are thus more triggerhappy and wreckless during engagement. Compare this to the discipline and sharpness of the RAF and other european airforces. If superior means most likely to fire the first shot then you would be correct but be careful when making statements about the superiority of airforce personnel without defining in which sense you mean. I should also point out that the USAF has many fine pilots who do an excellent job alongside other NATO forces.
Here’s an awesome pic of F-22s - http://www.aviation.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?c=technology&l=on&pic=070905_f22as_02.jpg&cap=Three F-22 Raptors fly in formation. Lockheed Martin delivered the 100th F-22 to the Air Force Aug. 29 in Marietta, Ga., and the latest aircraft will be assigned to the 90th Fighter Squadron at Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska. Credit: U.S. Air Force photo/Staff Sgt. Samuel Rogers&title=U.S. Air Force Receives 100th F-22 Raptor
Hey, guys, being Russian and living in US I must say it is nicely musically arranged and stitched together Su-37 stunt. It will impress any gypsy… they like bells and vessels. But just look at it from design point and you’ll see outdated design with newly squeezed in navigation and thrust technology in it. Truly useless body style in a now days “first see - you are winner” combat. This technology will be appealing to those rogue regimes that still honor heroic suicide attacks of suicide boomers e.t.c. For them visual maneuvers is a selling point, just as everything visual…
Raptor is the choice here! Super design, super technology - super winner!
This is what makes me a proud AMERICAN.
As for the Russians, I’ll tell - you have a lot of bright heads out here, but seriously, most of them, who is not busy now stealing from it’s own people wealth are looking how to make sure they have some nice cozy place to retire in a western world. Even those who steal - all of them making provisions for the safe heaven in a “Wild West”
Dear Russian motherland - stop trying to impress Arabs, Chinese and Latin American communist - to sell them outdated arms - impress your own people by giving them freedom to speak and develop honest lives! And they will thank you with their creativity and hard work. This will bring them all happiness. Ability to sell oil and export AK47 only will produce not wealth but thieves and corrupt government ONLY!
Being a non military pilot from AMERICA I’m gonna start out with some national pride, there being we are the super power, the Russains are a mere shell of a ONCE great power including a vast airforce. The Su line is highly sophisticated technology but reppresents to me a nation to proud to rebuild there roof with a brand new concept but instead trying to keep putting a new cast on the wing of a aged, tired, and dying old bird.Other than that I like the Su its mean as hell looking something the 22 doesn’t really strike me as even though it’s going to be the best fighter plane for the next fifty years or so.As for the euro-boys well they make for a pretty good fight if they jump some Japanese F-2’s but should really be kept out of this discussion.
hiiiiii the su-27 and su-30 are realy fantastic,dont tell me the american pilots are superior than the russians and the european pilots these pilots are highly skild they are 1000tims btr than there american counterparts,come on the american pilots were outmanurd by the indian aitforce pilots during the cope india air excersice….
If “real world” dogfighting were all about performing fancy low-energy acrobatics, then I’d probably pick an SU. But since maintaining a high energy state is paramount to survival in the aerial combat arena, and that stealth offers such an overwhelming advantage (as evidenced by recent Red Flag stats of Raptor vs. F-15/16s) then this whole “which is better” question becomes moot.
Its too naive to believe that stealth gives total invulnerability, so you can just “shoot and forget”. The only real war experience modern US planes had were outdated Soviet junk in the Middle East and Kosovo, and hopefully they won’t ever have to face anything better than that.
With the availability of computers that can apply multiple various algorithms in seconds, Russians (and who knows who else) have been developing military aircraft radars with anti-stealth capability. Plus, its much easier for ground radar systems/networks to detect stealth than for the one radar on the actual airplane, therefore having a proper ground anti-stealth system and communication will be the key to deter stealth. In the end, its the whole army against another, so it doesn’t really matter whether the plane x is better than plane y.
well, isn’t it interesting!!
the usa always claimed it was the best
well, their F-15s and F-16s lost 10-0 to not the sukhois but the Mig21 bisons of the IAF .
well, the usa wants to say their mathematically challenged pilots are the best! Remember WW2 and th e jap Zeros!!!
the eurofighter came to grief in indradhanush 07: wow the RAf “taught the IAF”.
i live and work here in the usa: compete against their best brains in Medicine: and i’m not impressed
so why should it be any different in a more simplistic and poorer category of people like the pilots of the USAF?
I love when Hollywood tells us that the USA is the best!! In what???
the “world” series in baseball!!! or ” Foot ball” when no other important nation of Earth plays those sports!!!
Good. Delusional status is what we need!
u know, delusions are our bigger enemies
we in the usa are delusional
there are better air forces and better pilots
we have a mediocrity of “idiots”
wow we’re are the best!
in what?
think of this: its not the machine that wins a war: its the man / woman behind it.
Math levels in the usa are at a disgusting low: i know , my kids study here!
why math? and for an airforce jock?
think: we get data aquisition in a series of numerical inputs: from the AWACS
then, we need to feed these digits into our computer or decide mentally what these numbers mean: i.e. where is the bogey going? how quickly to intercept it.
During Cope India exercises, the USAF fed data to both us and iaf pilots simultaneously.
the indians reacted much more quickly than the usaf trained pilots who should really be at home with data from THEIR OWN AWACS operators!
Hence the 10-0 scores.
now as for the comparison of passive v/s active phased array radars etc and their dectection superiorities vis a vis each other: don’t forget the su30mki is still evolving as is the raptor.
it is only a matter of months that any advantage gained by one in electronics / countermeasures is completely negated by the other side.
Brings us back to the basics: THE PILOT.
the usaf trains redon red thanks to the lousey indoctrination of red Flag.
the indians dont use russian ground control intercepts but fly - as the USAF pilots noted- “blue on blue” - something we saw in Hollywoods Tom Cruise in ” Top Gun”.
I hope i made my point.
Hmmm… i’m not goin to pretend like i know alot about any of this which is good because that makes my logic simple. Each jet has its own advantages and will be used as to work upon those advantages. The F-22 has it’s stealth and will as I understand, will usually get the first shot, which, as i understand, is critical. But, as I understand, the F-22 is not stricktly a fighter but a small bomber and recon plane as well. I don’t believe that the F-22 was specifically designed for dog fighting but for overall use. This is the first time I have seen the other planes and they each look incredible. As for pilots, I’m sure there are extremely good pilots in each of these air forces, some better then others. The air craft and pilots are obviously all incredible, that’s why they are featured here, so it all depends on the situation if they were to ever fight one another. It wouldn’t be the same everytime and I doubt any would completly dominate. So overall this question is irrelevant and everyone can pick their favorites. I pick the F-22. Mostly because I’m an American and I like the stealth aspect. It’s good to be sneaky.
As for this character above me, I’m sorry that you seem to dislike the country you live in but there’s obiously a reason you do. I agree that our overall math skills are dissapointing but the average person does not create nor pilot a fighter jet. And I’m going to pull the, ‘There’s a reason we’re the Super Power of Super Powers.’
So any way, back to the jets, I wish I could get a ride in each.
Wow there is nothing to decide really! There is NO jet in the world that comes even close to the F-22. It is by far #1 and soon to be #2 is the F-35. Even the F-35 can not be touched by any of these other fighter jets in the world. Anyone who says that their fighter can hang with ours is in denial and needs to come to the realization that that is simply not true. Look at it this way, the 22 has been in fights with over 5 F-15’s at a time and taken them all down with ease. The F-15 has rained as the most dominant fighter for years, why do you think the US has the title of air dominance? The 22 took them out so easily what makes anyone think their fighters even have a fighting chance? Sorry to all out there who ever have to encounter the 22 or 35 in battle…
guys, you’re missing the point.
it’s not the aircraft that wins a dog fight, it’s the man behind the machine.
usa has a problem: it’s level of education is disastrous: math and science are ignored.
the average fighter jock is not very smart.
every technological gain from one side is quickly matched - if not improved on - by the adversary.
if a mig 21 bis - a 50 yr old design - can defeat a f-15 10 out of 10 times,…. we have a problem!!!
the first dictum of combat is to never under-estimate your enemy.
every simulation in the usaf is biased heavily: they still think their mathematically and intellectually challenged men are BETTER than the rest of the world!!
my kids are straight As in the usa.
give them an indian test for their level…. oops
THINK!!!!
my medical colleagues: the best of the usa: cannot work out simple mental math problems without a calculator.
makes me cringe
it doesn’t matter what a single axis thrust vectoring F-22 can do when compared to a 2 to multi axis sukhoi 30 mki can do.
sorry,
the writing is “on the wall”.
This place smells like the palace of USA BULLSHIT.
Please, swallow your national stars and stripes pride.
When I read things like “American pilots who fly Raptors are far superior compared to Russian and or european pilots” posted by Eric, I can think of only one thing. Don’t watch so many movies!
I’m very very sure when it comes to actual skill and training specially RAF pilots and other European pilots indeed are not lowskill as you think, I even dare say they are the better ones compared to American pilots. Beeing cowboys doesn’t make American pilots good pilots. As for the discussion witch is the better fighter, I guess well never know untill some a**hole president unleashes World War 3.
first place f-22 due to its stealth technolodgy ands its state of the art avionics. 2nd place I,d say the eurofighter better tecnological advances then the russians and rivals the f-22 in agility. And 3rd the sukhoi-37 it lacks in some of the tecnolodgical advances of the f-22 and eurofighter, however in a dog fight could rival either aircraft in agility.
1 on 1 f-22 takes out any of those planes. DO that math NOOPERS 1 on 1 thos eplanes go down. so what do you do when a a group of american planes b1 stealth f-117 stealth and f-22 raptors come knocking at your door ? f-22 wins hands down. 1vs 1 or your country. lol NO WORRIES IRAN WILL be PROVING groun for raptors !
Hey Vince you sound like that next a**hole president I was talking about. Maybe not Iran but send your planes towards a country that has a military and airforce worth while and maybe you won’t sound so much like a trigger happy cowboy after some of your f-117 and f-22 get shot down. Do the math on that.
I got news for all of you who say that American pilots are not the best, and the F-22 Raptor is not the deadliest and best fighter in the world. You must be ignorant dumb asses who have their own countries pride in mind, but so am I, so I can understand how you feel. America pilots and technology have controlled the skies of every country during each war. American pilot kill ratios have been staggering. Upwards around 25 to 1, and even better during WWII and Vietnam (Who saved all of your butts from Hilter, oh yea that right) And if I am not mistaken, the only time American pilots went against Russian pilots on a consistent basis, was in Korea. I think we all know how those battles ended up. With Americans shooting down many more MIGS piloted by Russians. Look at HISTORY! Don’t worry about videos and demostrations, look at the facts. Russians are a very innovative people, who can develop fighter jets as good as the F-22, but the SU-37 and SU-30 are not it. First shot first kill ends the debate. I understand other countries have developed air defense systems, but these systems are not on par with the F-22 Raptor. This fighter is the best and will be the best for a LONG time. Maybe if we looked at the past and the performance of American technology and fighter pilots, we would all understand, HISTORY TELLS NO LIES. Most of you are a bunch of morons, supporting arguments that have never been proven. WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN OTHERS COUNTRIES GO TO WAR WITH AMERICA, THEY LOSE!!!! And I think thats been proven. The writing is on the wall, its been on the wall for along time.
P.S. - For those who say our President is a moron, I hope some terrorist attack your country and kill your citizen with commerical airlines. Its called standing up for you country and its people, not backing down like cowards, which weve seen plenty of that from the rest of you.
GOLD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!
Hey nick, indeed some of our f117’s and f22’s might get shot down, but their enemies will be gone, all gone. Better than sending our birds “toward a country that has a military and air force” why don’t you send some of those guys towards us. They’ll be wetting their pants before they get out of their briefing rooms. We were told how powerful the Iraqi military was before we kicked their buts in a matter of days. Talk is cheap. You ought to be glad your not talking German. We’ll be saving your asses again, while you maintain your elitist attitudes.
the F/A-22 is the best, no question; the best systems, thrust-vectoring, supercruise, and stealth, all combined in a highly capable design. true, many design features were cut in favor of stealth, and the plane could’ve been a lot better if it hadn’t been designed for it, but still, the Su-37 and Typhoon pale in comparison to the Raptor. hats off, to Lockheed Martin, though if the YF-23 had had TV, maybe Northrop could’ve pulled it off instead… down with the Sewer Hornet!
and as for pilot skill, we have Red Flag, the Air Force Fighter Weapons School at Nellis, and the Navy Fighter Weapons School at Fallon, better known as TopGun. these programs, coupled with elite Aggressor squadrons who fly and fight using Russian and other would-be hostile tactics, make for excellent pilot training. true, the Russians have some great pilots, and so do the Europeans, but overall American pilots beat all. and the F-117 sucks, has to fly in the dark, rain/bad weather diminishes stealthiness, and it was designed as a fighter, came out as an attack jet that can’t maneuver or fly fast at all. so much for the so-called “stealth fighter”…
forgot to mention that the Israelis tend to have the best pilots and tactics, mainly because we give them the equipment and training necessary to survive in the Mid East. great country, Israel, one of the more capable militaries in the world. plus they have the best maintenance turn-around times.
To Jonathan. Yes I can see how you guys win all wars. A tie in Korea, got your asses kicked in Vietnam and fighting a long lost causse in Irak against bearded guys with AK’s, The only real war you guys were in and that was won is WO II, and that war is mainly won by the Russians and the allround SUPERIOR NUMBERS by allied troops (not superior skill).
To Sigmeister. The Iraqi military never was powerfull. Having a very large number of untrained men available does not make a powerfull military, same goes for Iran, that your so eager to invade next.
Wonder why your country is barking to North Korea and don’t just invade them like your planning to do with Iran? Skared they might get some real help from China? Or you just gonna kick there butts as easely too you think? And by the way. The way your country tries to put preassure on some European countries and try to get things done your way for WO 2 and how you guys so called helped us. I’m cinda sorry inb some ways I don’t speak German. And by the way, your president still is a moron!
Korea was not a tie, we won in stopping communist aggression and creating an economic powerhouse in the Far East. Vietnam was political pussyfooting and interference, not an indication of American military prowess. if anything, it’s amazing our boys didn’t get their asses whooped in the first day of fighting, what with all the stupid restrictions and ROE they had to follow. and we won the WAR in Iraq, but we’re losing the occupation, and when you look at it, how many countries have been successful in occuppying a hostile country peacefully? maybe if the analysts at old Five-Sides had gotten it together and thought ahead of time in their predictions, this mess would never’ve occurred. and we won WW2, no question. American ingenuity, skill, resourcefulness made as much a difference as greater numbers, and remember that Hitler sent the bulk of his forces to stop the American/British invasion, drawing off forces from the Eastern Front. and Europe should be a little more grateful; we gave them the Marshall Plan, free of charge, and helped rebuild all of Western Europe. as for Iraq, we never should’ve gone in, we shouldn’t go into Iran or North Korea, becasue, as despicable as they are, they’re sovereign nations that we can try to reason with. although it would be a lot easier and lot less messier to just invade and get it right this time, seeing as Iran and North Korea’s only use for nuclear power is obviously military; in Iran’s case, it’s nuking Israel. and of course we’re scared of fighting with China, economic implications not withstanding. in 20 years, at their current rate of weapons modification, upgrading, and technology stealing, they’ll be able to beat us any time, anywhere, conventionally. and of course George Bush is a moron, whoever said differently? same with Putin, Musharaf, and that president of Iran i can never spell right. come to think of it, i didn’t spell Pakistan’s prez either… ^_^
pilots well I,d say every nation especially u.s, Britain, Israel and the European nations, france , germany etc have all great pilots on diff skill levels. I,ll give an example I,m from canada and they had a competion with f-18s with americans that year a canadian one the competion so I guess every country has great pilots of every skill level. fighter supremacy well thats another factor added with the pilot skill that brings the full picture in to view.
america did not save us from hitler you muppet.here is a brief history. hitler invaded poland. britain declared war becouse of that.everyone else started to get involved america did not want to help untill they got bombed there selves (pearl harbour)then the russians had the biggest part in defeating the germans. america missed 3 years of the first world war and 2 of the second world war 5 years out of a total of 10.
Yes, I remember reading that Ben. I also remember dutch, belgian, british and other pilots winning those. Is the reason for me to reply in the first place and my point exactly.
To F-14Ds Rock! Anytime, Baby! Remember the Tomcat! I don’t think it’s going to take the chinese 20 years, more like 8 to 10. Even more reason for US and EU not to argue but work togetter. We all know what can happen when a new superpower emerges.
cj first, i guess; a great portion of America DID want to get involved in the conflict erupting across the globe - President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, hamstrung by an Isolationist Congress, could only supply aid through the Lend-Lease act, but he dearly wanted to enter the war with the Allies. and after Pearl Harbor he was able to. and please keep in mind that Hitler sent most of his forces against the American/British invasion from the west, NOT the eastern Russian front. He believed that if he could stop the Western Allies, then Germany would be a little more secure (only the Eastern Front to deal with) and he could stop the Russians and negotiate on his own terms. and the actual fighting for the war began when Japan invaded Korea in the early 1900s, then in Manchuria in 1931-2. and are you forgetting all the Russian atrocities against the Germans? and vice versa?
and Nick, I agree, at this rate it probably wont take as long as 20 years; that number is 5 years old already. the problem is that the Chinese are modernizing by stealing our technology; UH-60 Blackhawk and F-16 Fighting Falcon engines, AEGIS, F-14 parts, AIM-120 AMRAAM, the list goes on. and no, this isn’t conspiracy. the pentagon and numerous other sources have confirmed this and arrested multiple arms dealers, mainly Korean and Taiwanese.
and Ben, what planes were each side flying? if the Americans were flying F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, then of course they lost, the plane is inferior to even the original Hornets, they’ve confirmed this in tests. read this:
that’ll explain all you need to know, and then some.
looks like it’s not showing… ah well, just look up “F-14D vs. F/A-18E/F”, anything to do with RADM Paul Gilchrist (ret.), since the web URL after “read this (above)” isn’t there.
The fact is indeed that Hitler send most of his troops to the western front, but also a fact is that the British and American invaders were greater in number then the Russians. Because I remember reading about the Can/Us contest. Both were flying f-18’s.
there’s a difference between the F-18 and the F/A-18, and which model was it? the A, B, C, D, E, or F? as explained in that article i listed earlier, in tests involving both F/A-18Cs and F/A-18E/Fs, the regular Hornets flew circles around the new Sewer Bugs. one pilot was quoted as saying “We outran them, we outflew them, and we ran them outa gas. I was embarrassed for them.” and the Americans didn’t have T-34s, Nick, the Russians were the ones with the massed mobile armor columns.
it’s nice to see such chauvenism - we need more of it! It’s always better to meet an enemy pilot / s who are so over confident that they cannot see the writing on the wall.
so, if the USAF fields the “best of the best, sir!” in the “best of the best aircraft” , we have nothing to fear. Right?
they could not handle MiG21s! In cope india 2005 / 6!
Go for it guys!
those weren’t MiG-21s, they were Su-30s, which mind you are way newer than the F-15C Eagles they defeated. besides, the F-15 was never intended to take on smaller, more nimble fighters like the Fishbed, except at BVR. F-16s and F/A-18s were designed for that. and it’s not just the USAF. the USN, until recently (Sewer Hornet), the Israelis, the Russians (some of ‘em), the Brits, etc. all have highly capable pilots, as do the Pakistanis, Indians, Taiwanese, South Koreans, French, Germans, Turkmen, etc.
chauvinism? nah, it’s raw patriotism and realism; deal with it.
what damage? all that’s pure fact! the Su-30 IS newer than the F-15C, MiG-21’s are more nimble and harder to see than F-15’s and F-14’s, and that is one of the reasons why we have F-16’s and F/A-18’s, to augment the bigger, more expensive, more complex, and less numerous birds. realism part of my brain? what? all i said is true AND verified; DEAL WITH IT!
Verified? I’ll tell you something thats verified. That the british flew the more dangerous and close to ground missions during the gulfwar. The superior flying skills of your pilots must also be the reason why only the brits got shot down by friendly fire, because your highly capable pilots really know how to recognize friend from foe. Like that little helicopter incident during the last gulfwar, when a USAF fighter shot down a UK helicopter. The simple British reply, when did you guys LAST see an Iraqi Helicopter caught the Americans with their pants down and had no answer what so ever. Like that highly capable USAF pilot who flew right true the cables of a skilift in Switserland and killed a bunch of people. Like I said before cowboys don’t make good pilots.
geezus christ, you’d think i’d just insulted somebody… I’ve never had a bad thing to say about the brits (except their lack of supercarriers, which would’ve made the Falklands a hell of a lot easier), they have many of the best special forces, tanks, weapons, etc. true, the Brits flew low-level bomb runs in 1991 and suffered many losses as a result, and i commend them on their skill in flying through a flakstorm and still delivering their bombs on-target. Panavia Tornadoes are just as capable as (some would say more capable than) F-16’s, F/A-18’s, and FB-111’s. America has messed up in the past and present, it’s true; that helo shoot-down, the recent tank strafing, there’s a reason it’s called fog of war, it was our fault and the fault of IFF equipment, i’m not trying to justify, i’m trying to explain here. and the Iraqis DID have Mi-24 Hind gunships, which could’ve done some damage to coalition armor columns, including your beloved British Challenger 2’s. and true, American pilots have snapped wires in Italy and Switzerland, unfortunate and we should’ve (i dont know if we did, but i dont think we did) made full apologies, reparations, and punished the pilots involved and made sure regulations regarding low-level overflights of friendly territory be followed.
but you’re wrong; cowboys may not make good “politically reliable” play-by-the-book soldiers, but they usually do make for intuitive shit-hot pilots! and no, that is NOT TOPGUN talking! I have family in the military, mister!
and what did i say before that set you off? that Indian exercise thing with our F-15 squadron WAS true, the Indians were flying brand new Su-30 multi-role fighters, while the Americans had aging F-15C Eagles.
and didn’t you say that was the last you’d say to me?
I gotta say, the F-22 would only maintain its airsupremacy so long as its stealth remains in full effect. The radar jamming is nice and all but so long as the Su-30 can detect the raptor it goes to hell in a big way.
The Su-30 can shoot it’s weapons with total stealth at a distance well in advance of the AIM-120, America’s longest ranging missile.
probably the most intelligent thing i’ve heard all week! in America’s quest for a stealthy hard-to-see fighter, we’ve taken away from dogfighting, load-carrying, etc. attributes, creating an aircraft that, except for stealth, systems, TV, etc., is inferior to the Su-37 and other super-fighters. but no one’s bought the Su-37 yet… we need an AIM-54 Phoenix replacement, a missile with a range exceeding 150 miles. that way we’ll stay ahead of the curve. and it would be a perfect reason to resurrect the F-14; aside from all the other reasons I’ve listed.
Yes if we ever fight a war in the space of an airshow the F22 is in trouble! Su’s and Euro Fighters look like their best feature is wowing cameras and Generals at airshows.
lol, idk, the Su-37 has TV and canards and is pretty damn maneuverable; i think the Flanker and the Raptor would be quite evenly matched, all depends on pilots, who gets the first best shot off, who makes the least mistakes, etc.
the first thing about opening one’s mouth is to make sure that you don’t crap in it.
Cope india 05 and 06 saw NO su30mki engagements - the indian air force banned this.
The only su30s used were the older mks - no thrust vectoring, no canards and older avionics - apparently they were forbidden from switching on their radars!!!
the usaf came to grief from both them and the MiG21 Bisons: recently upgraded mig21s.
since cope india, many third world air forces ready to mothball their mig21s have apparently approached india not only to train their pilots but to learn as to how they could defeat the US in air combat using these 50 year old aircraft.
The MKIs phase 3 apparently did not use their radars in the next - and more important - exercise INDRADHANUSH against the eurofighter Typhoon in the U.K.
Remember, the Russian - Indian fifth gen aircraft will enter service in a few years - based on a MINIMAL requirement to defeat the F-22 and F–35 in ALL scenarios.
IT IS NOT THE AIRCRAFT THAT DECIDES THE OUTCOME OF AIR COMBAT BUT THE PILOT INSIDE IT.
AND, UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU GUYS YOUR PILOTS LEAVE A LOT TO DESIRE
“[our] pilots leave a lot to be desired”? what? with TOPGUN, Red Flag, and all those other exercises the US and other nations participate in, we LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED? why do you think China got so damn scared after Desert Storm? because they saw American and British tanks ripping through Iraqi armour columns, and they saw COALITION AIRCRAFT OWNING THE SKIES!!! most of the Iraqi aircraft fled, and some were flying MiG-29 Fulcrums. now China has the Z-10, the J-10, the Type-98 tank, and a shitload of other high-tech toys…
COPE India saw younger generation Su-30 Flankers take on older F-15 Eagles, and besides, the MiG-21 is smaller, harder to see, more maneuverable, and, in upgraded variants (like the Israeli MiG-21 Lancer produced for the Romanians), is the equal of any Cold-War era fighter still fielded today; why do you think the US is making the F/A-22 Raptor, the French have the Rafale, Sweden has the Gripen, and the rest of Europe is gunning for the Ef-2000? because everybody recognizes that current front line F-15, Tornado, Viggen, etc. aircraft are TOO OLD! the entire USAF just recently grounded most of their F-15’s, and Japan and Israel followed suit, as did South Korea, because the planes are old and fatigued; eventually, newer F-15Es were allowed to fly, but the point is that these fighters are too old, and need to be replaced
not to mention the fact that Su-27 Flanker series aircraft are helluvalot more maneuverable than F-15C’s.
and no one denies the pilot determines the victory…
What does one make a fighter for?
In a combat situation there is no doubt that the Raptor could shoot down the others
before they even saw it. Supercruise without afterburners defeates Russian IRTS.
No Heat No tracking or missle lock. The non-intrusive radar lock is the greatest
advance in air combat in 50 years. You can acheive radar lock without alerting the
enemy. Simply stated if any of you DO your research you’ll find that the other vehicles
are monkeys with hammers when compared. The US kill ratio at a standing 6 to 1 will only
increase.
finally, someone who explains and argues why they actually think one is better than the others! everyone else just says “Eurofighter Rocks” and leave it at that… thanks, Broli, you made my day
lol you compare F-22 with these planes.I don’t think any of this russian junk or the EF2000 can compare with it.The only thing which the both planes are close is the manouverability of the SU and the Raptor.In every other aspect the russian junk can’t even get close to the Raptor.Guys when you will understand that russians are at least 10 years behind americans.When the americans researched the TV on their F-18 HARV,F-16 MATV,X-31 and did these manouvers like the SU-30 the russians were putting in their air force the SU-27 with its “incredible” manouver “the cobra”.I’m sorry but that’s the truth and you just have to DEAL WITH IT !
everybody here needs to remember its all about experience.experience will decide the winner in battles every country can simulate but no simulation compares with experience.the f22 will simply win because it was created by a country that has the most experience on the battlefield and knows what is needed.
The eurofighter and su-37 are remarkable planes but the f-22 is simply on a different playing field.
If these airplanes went against a rapter it would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight.
With its supercruise faster, its situational awarness greater, and its stealth features, which makes it resemble a bumble bee on the radar screen why would the su-37 maneuverabilty be the turning point for those of yall who think that russian plane is better?
Which by the way american pilots have proven time and time again, like in Korea and Vietnam, that simply having maneuverabilty doesn’t insure victory.
Right now I also want to make a few more points that have been brought up early in the blogs
The first one about WWII, America was the sole reason why we won it, the allies helped and russia played there part, but Russia only had to fight on one front America fought threw Africa, Italy, France, and into Germany which I guess this is pretty obvious. No one has mentioned the fact that we fought on the other side of the planet too, we had to take back half of the pacific from Japan which at the time had the biggest navy in history also the harshist fighters too. We ended the war
by dropping “the bomb” over Japan twice which no other country had making us the most powerful country in history, no other country played a biggest role than the United States. Beforehand Britain was barely holding off Hitler, Russia was a dirt poor country that if not for there brutal winter could have never turn the tied against Hitler by themselves.
The second one is about China somebody brought up that in 20 years it will be impossible for us to fight them in a conventional war. China is an economical nightmare, right now they have the best economy but it wont last they will crash, maybe harder than the Soviets did which ended the cold war. Our country spends more money on our military than the next 30 countries combined which includes China. There a country full of hard headed idiots who can take a country seriously when it has the greatest pollution and biggest human rights issues.
Last but not least Russia has also been good at making propaganda weapons which is exactly what the su-37 and su-47 are. There nothing more than an f-15 with more missles and more manueverabilty. The f-22 is ment to dominate these kind of conventional aircraft and it will
“[our] pilots leave a lot to be desired”? what? with TOPGUN, Red Flag, and all those other exercises the US and other nations participate in, we LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED? why do you think China got so damn scared after Desert Storm? because they saw American and British tanks ripping through Iraqi armour columns, and they saw COALITION AIRCRAFT OWNING THE SKIES!!! most of the Iraqi aircraft fled, and some were flying MiG-29 Fulcrums. now China has the Z-10, the J-10, the Type-98 tank, and a shitload of other high-tech toys…
In desert storm 2, US was fighting against a country which was crippled by more than 10 years of economic sanctions where they were denied weapons and spare parts for their tanks and planes. Do you think it was a level-playing field?
Tyler, first, i guess
you make a lot of good, correct points, many of them my own as well, but the Su-37 and -47 aren’t just propaganda toys; they’re potent strike fighters that, though they may not equal the F/A-22, are easily more capable than any F-15 in the world today. a veteran Israeli F-15E crew would be hard-pressed to beat a well-flown Russian Super Flanker in every multi-role spectrum. that said, the Raptor dominates… as to China, you are, in my well-founded, expert-backed opinion, incorrect. we may spend more than any other nation on “defense”, but guess where most of that dough ends up… i’ll give you three guesses, but you’ll only need one - IRAQ! and, to a way smaller extent, Afghanistan. so relatively little is going into R&D and the modernization of other forces not associated with Iraq that could come into play in a possible war with china. china, meanwhile, continues to increase its defense spending, while the democrats (in rhetoric) and the republicans (in tax-cuts) continue to slash defense spending in the US. China has always been a numerically superior force, and now they are modernizing fast. a lot of this game of catch-up comes from export Russian hardware and STOLEN AMERICAN MILITARY “SECRETS (not really vital to national security, but still stuff way more advanced than China would normally see)”! numbers can be beaten by technology and training, but numbers and technology together are about unstoppable. China is now equalizing the fighting power of the US, and they also already outnumber us; am i the only one here that sees something wrong with this picture? a couple of examples: multiple arms dealers have been arrested for supplying restricted non-exportable American hardware to Chinese intelligence authorities; the hardware included UH-60 Blackhawk engines, which the US has declared non-exportable. the Pentagon has confirmed that they know that chinese-paid agents are also trying to obtain F-14 Tomcat parts, AIM-120 AMRAAM’s, the AGM-165 (i think), an Air Force stealth cruise missile, and other things. Chinese ships have been seen coming out of dry dock with AEGIS copies, AEGIS of course being a complex air-defense coordination system developed during the cold war and still in use today. and one look at chinese military hardware is quite sobering; the Z-10 attack helicopter, said to be the equal of the Augusta A-129 Mangusta and South Africa’s Rooivalk, is nearing deployment, the J-10 (a Chinese Eurofighter, basically) is in squadron service, a range of Type-96 and Type-98 tanks, comparable to Russian T-80s, are in production, and the chinese have a number of Su-27 fighters, Russian submarines, and russian surface ships.
let’s call it the united states of Hollywood!
Topgun!!
Redflag!
fly red on red! the enemy is stupid, armed with inferior training and machines!!
love this rhetoric!
need more of this
The average US student is 2 - 3 years BEHIND their Asian counterpart and 3 yrs behind by year 22.
The average USAF pilot is similarly so and why not? Do “the best of the best sir” - oops Hollywood’s Men in Black - is not the sharpest knife in the kitchen.
The smartest American produce enters the private sector, as MDs, Engineers and Lawyers.
The left behinds join the armed forces, government service, Sherrif’s dept etc.
Very few boys joining the forces do so because of Family value and proud tradition.
Look at the instances of “friendly fire” “accidents” involving US forces! Unmatched in the world!!!
In a country where education till 18 is FREE, college graduation EASY and the possibility to improve one’s strature almost an undeniable RIGHT, people who FAIL are called “LOOSERS”!!!
Right??
So, who joins the Forces??
Unemployed Blacks, Hispanics, poor whites and foreigners trying to obtain US citizenship!
How smart are they?
And we depend on them for our safety!!!!
DREAM ON
First of all anoop you are a moron to say the least.
The U.S. military engineers are some of the smartest people in the world and not all of them come from the U.S. The military acadmies for the army, airforce, and navy are some of the hardest institutions to get into in America. On level with the Ivy league schools.
In fact when I was in high school every year the top graduate went to a military school and these people had perfect SAT scores and a near perfect average I knew cause I was friends with these kids.
The lower end of society might be the ones inlisting in the army as privates but there whole objective is to follower orders by men and women who have put the time and effort into an education.
To say that our military is stupid shows alot of ignorants on your part
Dude I can go on and on and on and on about what the U.S. has planned for the next 20 years for the military but that would take up nearly all the blog space on this website.
With what our military is creating like boeing 747’s with tactical lasers, the future force land warrior which in theory would be able to turn a soldier invisiable, brand new ship designs for the next decade, a bomber that can fly faster than mach 6 that will be ready for testing by 2012 we are leaving every other country in the dust.
China doesn’t have these capabilities and by the time they do what will we have? don’t kid yourself we will always be the trend setters in military technology and dominance
Let’s assume for the moment that there are three main types of engagments:
1. Tech. Here the Raptor wins by stealth and jamming. The theory is that the raptor will almost never be detected. The Raptor may or may not have better radar (please confirm) but this comes in later. However, the Su-30mki’s IRTS and EOS features can give it the advantage by providing a completely stealthy approach and attack.
2. BVR. Beyond visual range. This assumes all parties have ben detected by eachother. What really counts here is Missiles and Guidance. As far as missiles go, Russia has it pretty good. Ever since the F-14 was retired the longest ranged air-to-air missile has been the Russian Ash missile. I’m not sure whether the Ash is employed on the Su-30mki but I know the Alamo is. The Alamo has a much better range than the AIM-120 AMRAAM.
Once again, the IRST and EOS possessed by the Su-30mki gives it a stealthy launch so that helps too.
3. Dogfight. This is where it gets mucky. All craft are exceptional dogfighters, with arnament and delivery being the only applicable factors.
The R-73 Archer is the Russian Airforces main close-air-missile and is the dogfighting weapon of choice for the Su-30mki. It can be fired at extremely rough conditions (Off the boresight by almost 90*) and is very accurate (latet reports confirm more so than the AIM-9L and maybe X).
The AIM-9X Sidewinder is the American contender with off boresight firing and improved accuracy. However both these factors are rumoured to be not as profound as the R-73.
The Eurofighter will most likely use the AIM-9X or the IRIS missile which I don’t know a great deal about.
All craft are extremely well made beasts. I refuse to think one is better, for as said above it is how they are flown. A badly flown F-22 could be shot down by an ace MiG-21. The planes themselves must therefore be scrutinised surgically. If the F-22 is as stealthy as the Americans say, then it will most likely win the day. However, with a good set up the Su-30mki (or prototype -37) does have the advantage in range and delivery.
While I believe the F-22 is a fantastic plane I do believe it is vulnerable. Any countermeasure that may be produced in the near future will leave this mega-expensive plane as usefull as the F-15. For without its’ stealth that is all the F-22 really is.
One last note (soz guys), the Su-30 and EF-2000 are far cheaper than the F-22 which could provide a decisive advantage.
I’ll shut up now.
anoop, while some of what you say has factual backing, your whole argument is obviously biased against the US armed forces; why, i cannot say. according to Thomas L. Friedman’s THE WORLD IS FLAT, while Aisans and Eastern Europeans may be ahead in brainpower on average, the US continues to triumph in innovation; all the Chinese, Indians, and Polish have been able to do is copy and beat us in the workplace, but they have not beaten out American ingenuity yet, though at this rate it shouldn’t take much longer. and i denounce your arrogance and ignorance in regard to the make-up of the armed forces. you think it’s only minorities in the military? where are these facts comin’ from, Chinese People’s Talk Radio?
as to tyler, looks like we have an argument from the total other end of the spectrum. what exactly can the YAB-1 COIL Airborne Laser accomplish? it’s still in testing, and in a major conventional war it’s useless unless you want to use it to snipe other planes, something i’m not even sure is possible. it was designed to shoot down ballistic missiles. exactly what do ballistic missiles do in a conventional war? the Objective Force Warrior again is still barely past development, the DD-21 concept destroyers again aren’t even built yet, and what Mach 6 bomber? the Aurora? that’s recon, mister, and we’re not even sure that even exists. and besides, how much do you think all this costs? the navy never meets its quota of aircraft bought per year, due to costs, how do you think they can afford more than a couple of DD-21’s? our illustrious presidents keep slashing taxes and increasing spending, and right now most of that spending goes to Iraq. and have you read the whole articles you’ve listed? everything displayed is either experimental, in development, or isn’t even going to be possible for the next decade. if you look at our military NOW and in the next coupla years, we’re screwed. the navy just killed aviation for the next 20 years with the Super Hornet, which is inferior in all respects to the F-14D Super Tomcat 21, the other proposed Tomcat replacement with increased strike capability and revamped everything-avionics, fly-by-wire, the works. the super hornet is even inferior in tests to the original Hornet! we look at the air force; ok, F/A-22, a coupla squadrons of those, AND aging F-15 and F-16 fighters that have only half the performance they had 2 decades ago, B-2s that can be detected on low-frequency WW2 type radar (the Brits proved this during Desert Storm), B-1Bs i’ll give the chair force kudos for, and B-52’s, venerable and slow, good missileers but that’s about it. and as i said earlier, you look at china, you see… well, i’m not gonna type it all again, just look at my last post. i appreciate your patriotism and your bashing of anoop, but in regards to china we’ll just have to agree to disagree. if and when Taiwan is overwhelmed in the next few decades, you’ll know why.
Alex Ryan, you make good points, and i dont think anyone can disagree; the F/A-22 without stealth would be a helluvalot more capable, because its design would be more functional, and we could put more stuff on or in it. stealth isn’t totally invincible, gentlemen, the Serbs or someone proved that in 1997 (they shot down a F-117 “Stealth Fighter”-oh please, the plane couldn’t dogfight with a 747)
Alright first of all I was talking about the blackswift program in development with the airforce not aurora. It’ll probably be manless but capable of flying mach 6 into combat threw the use of scramjets which have already proven to work.
Alright first of all I was talking about the blackswift program in development with the airforce not aurora. It’ll probably be manless but capable of flying mach 6 into combat threw the use of scramjets which have already proven to work.
Of course the f-18 super hornet isn’t anything compared to the f-14 but we really don’t need the f-14 in this day and time of warfighting. If we were to fight a technological advanced culture like ours in the future the f-14 wouldn’t have much of an advantage anyway. Thats why we’re developing the f-35, for naval fleet defence, which proves that we’re not getting behind in naval air combat.
Besides right now our navy is exponentialy bigger than any other navy in the world. We have 2 aircraft carriers in place of everyother aircraft carrier in the world.
Another point is the fact that our military is trying to adapt to a fast past kind of war, which is against terrorism. If China were to become a viable threat in the future our country would change tactics and “out muscle” them if need be. Although first off we would probably never go to war with China because it might lead to a nuclear war which in that case nobody wins. China’s once shown aggression towards Taiwon we ended up sailing one of our many aircraft carriers fleets down there and guess what China backed off.
Theres no way that China will become so powerful that they would do something to piss of the U.S. and not think twice about it. They understand that its to much of an economical burden to compete with us militarly just look what happened to the Soviet Union.
I know the F-22 is more advanced on paper, but seriously all of the updates seem to be ways of pilling in technology the Raptor really doesn’t need. I think it’s a great plane but considering the Su-30MKI is seriously cheaper and in some ways quite superior, the only way the Raptor will be successful is if it’s stealth and/or jamming holds up. Both of these are measures, just waiting for countermeasures.
I think in all this what the nations of the world need is a compromise:
The Raptor is expensive, the Su-30 is a bit rough avionics wise so a compromise is in order. Let’s say a craft which has a relatively advanced radar, data-link, weapon systems and good navigation. Easy to use, that kinda thing.
Instead of filling these planes full so full technology that they become (effectively) unavailable for export. Australia really wants an air supremacy fighter but we cant buy the Raptor. A simplified Raptor or the Su-30MKI (which we cant purchase for political reasons:() would be the best thing.
Tell you what, give me a F-14!
I do think the F-22 is a great plane, but besides Stealth the plane lacks any effective improvement. I know it has better Situation Awareness and this and that but the important things have been forgotten. Missiles? Far too short-ranged!
never heard of Blackswift, i’ll look it up, but i can guarantee you it hasn’t left the drawing board… of course we need the Tomcat, Tyler, just look at how it filled the multi-role job! as an updated Super Tomcat 21, the F-14D can carry the same ordnance variety, twice the payload, range, speed, survivability, and capability as the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, currently the navy’s solution to naval aviation. the F-14 makes a great strike fighter, something we would definitely need in any future conflicts. and as to carriers, who cares about numbers, the Persian Gulf and China seas are all considered “Brownwater”, and not exactly perfect for blue water air ops, to say the least. naval combat right now depends on silence (subs), detection, and firepower. and the Chinese have a large, increasingly modernized navy, bulked up by multiple Russian vessels and subs that are perfectly suited to the shallow waters off China. and that skirmish you mentioned occurred years ago, back when china was ONLY numerically superior; now, it’s different, as i’ve explained before. and the reason the USSR fell was because they were communist as an economy. China has survived because they’re capitalist, and while in economical terms China would suffer greatly if they attack us, you have to look at it from an Asian point of view. Taiwan is technically, according to China, the 23rd Province or Chinese Taipei. in their eyes, they have every right and responsibility to invade. look at the Spratleys, nice contested oil-rich islands miles off China’s coast, in easy range of naval and air strikes. to the typical Asian, face means a lot.
Thanks, but I like being proved wrong. I guess I’m in a godd position here in Australia. Indonesia is our biggest threat but we would rely on America for support. Remove this and we’re smoke.
I just worry about us buying the F-35. It’s cheaper than the F-22 but it still costs a nation like ours bucket loads. It’s a great plane but it lacks the things a large and comparitively poor nation such as ours needs. Range and…cheapness.
I really wish we would buy Su-30mki’s from India or at least a couple of Su-35’s from Russia. They have an almost perfect blend for us but politics killed that one.
The F-35 would be great for a close battlefield full of sams and threats and with AWACS support. Thats what it’s built for. But Australia (and Spain?) really needs a new F/A-18 with more range, maybe stealth and better missiles. The Superhornet seems to have been build upon a thousand lies. The only thing left is the Raptor (yeah we could field around…five? ten?) or the Su-30 (which we cant buy). Gah! someone give us an alternative (which we wont listen to…like Dassault)
ah, poor austrailia. although in reality, you guys dont have much to worry about; would Indonesia ever attack you? i doubt it, and all they could field anyway would be F-16’s and a coupla Russian fighters; your F/A-18’s and (soon-to-be) F-35’s would make short work of them. although in reality the F-35 isn’t that great, it’s 80% overweight, a MiG-21 with a veteran expert pilot could take one on, assuming they could find it. the F/A-18 is a great airframe, a perfect blend of two concepts, but it’s as good as it’s gonna get; you cant improve upon it anymore, despite a valiant attempt by the Sewer Bug. now a stealth-enhanced, updated Super Tomcat 21, THAT is the perfect aircraft, at least for the USN; Australia might like it, idk, but dont buy the rafale, it’s overrated. neway, yeah, Su-30MKI’s would be great…
continuing my rant against the F-35, the plane, in short, is an inferior F/A-22, without the supercruise, TV, and systems. the plane is 80% overweight, and weight-loss measures will surely cost the plane in performance greatly. dont get me wrong, i like the “little-stealth” a lot, STOVL is a great concept, but i dont know why everyone gets so happy over the Lightning II. the plane doesn’t deserve it. there’s a reason the Air Force is buying 2000 F-35’s, and only 300 F/A-22’s. and naval aviation, as said above, is screwed for the next 20 years because of the replacement of the f-14 and the refusal to accept the F-14D Super Tomcat 21 replacement, in favor of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the F-35 Lightning II.
I agree completely! The F-35 was proposed to us as a twin-engined, all-purpose, high-tech fighter/attacker. Instead we got a single-engined piece of junk! Like I said, great for a close battlefield like say, the Gulf War or something but not really a homelad defese fighter.
I also agree that the Rafale wouldn’t have been suited for Australia (range again!) but what worries me is that the Australian military and indeed many of the world’s militaries are being squashed below arrogant political groups and leaders. Our minister for defense could’t give two Precision Guided F**ks about checking the Rafale out but I reckon our military advisors and personel would have at least had a look
Oh and one thing. I have now found a conclusive argument for the Su-27 family. The Su-34 “Platypus” is equipped with a toilet. Does the F-22? I rest my case!
Oh and from what I’ve heard (garbelled and patriotic) the F-22’s stealth is much better than the F-117’s. Still, from what I read it wasn’t a radar unit which detected and engaged the Nighthawk over bosnia, but careful placement and visual scanning performed by clever Serbian SAM units.
Oh and does anyone know about the effectiveness of IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) or Russian EOS (Electro-Optical Sighting)against the F-22? I guess supercruise and angled vector plates on the raptor might limit the first one but you never know… I saw an image showing the effective range of EOS/IRST being greater than an AIM-120…could be the tech advantage that we dont want!
Just looking back, I think we should remember we aren’t including pilot skill as a factor. We are judging the planes. We actually don’t know how good an airforce really is until they are put to combat. This is why American pilots flew the Su-30mki’s against their own F-15C’s in the evaluation.
the Su-34 has a toilet? lol! well, it is a heavy strike plane… you mean an actual like lavatory? because pilots already have relief tubes… as to IRST, doesn’t matter if afterburning or not, your engine still emits a lot of heat, especially in cold weather and/or altitude. but using burner would definitely increase the range at which you could be detected. i dont know much abo
What do you mean you decide? There is nothing to decide, we already know which is the best.
Really?
Yes right, it’s the Eurofighter
Raptor, without a doubt.
Just based on viewing those videos, I’d have to say the SU-37 is the one I’d like to be in the most if I had to. Shame we didn’t develop a supersonic Harrier though, still my favourite.
Pff the F-22 raptor is Superior in 99% of aspects,it makes dust all the SU-Line and the Typhoon
SU-30 hands down! (SU-37 double loop…wow!) off axis control is astonishing!!! F-22 makes too many flight performance compromises (airframe) for a smaller radio-wave (radar) cross section. The Typhoon agility is impressive as well.
Su 37 Best Of The Best. It’s extremly flexible and has more math and physics than it’s competitors.
Again that’s my opinion only.
The other ones F 22 and Eurofighter are in my opinion somehow behind for the moment.
There is no doubt that the Americans and Europeans are fully capable to develop similar technologies in a short period of time.
All of them echant the eye of the specialist and show us how the mankind is capable to make progress even though is in miliitary area.
Whishing them all good luck with their new projects, and to make the air transportation more safe for all of us.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to express my thoughts.
I dont care what the specs for any of those planes are but that blue plane, i think the su-30 completely destroyed all of them. There is no denying it. The F-22 couldnt even come close to that. Who ever denies it is a moron.
The funny thing is, the F-22 can carry only 2,000lb (910 kg) weapons in its internal bay. All other load such as weapons or fuel tanks has to be carried outside. But as soon as something is mounted on the outside of the plane, it loses its stealth capabilities. Besides that, its aerodynamically efficiency is decreased, which results in less performance.
It is great to see these planes being built now, i’m sure we can all agree that these are the birds we dreamt of as kids! All of these planes are amazing this is my first time seeing the su-37 and it is INCREDIBLE!!!! Double loop, badass tailslides, and awesome stalls! I have seen the raptor demo and can say you should check it out live ASAP! Good luck to everyone!God bless America!
I think russians and SU are amazing. When will we start learn from them and become more friendly to russian brothers? God bless America and Mother Russia.
No Name: “Su 37 Best Of The Best. It’s extremly flexible and has more math and physics than it’s competitors.”
yeah well, the F-22 has more History, Theater, AND an extra lunch hour than it’s competitors!
Yes, the US always have built nice weather planes (F-16 at first)or big, under powered tech-monsters (like F/A-18E, F-111), with great features, but only one difference to the optimized load and configuration is killing the high cost dream (like the compromize for the stealth due to its limitted bay volume … and they didn’t learn from the past, forgot the lesosns from korea and vietnam, that with little effort BVR is absorbed, and close combat is important. So, no question the Raptor is already the third.
The first? For me, the situation and the pilot will decide. So India and Europe have the best fighters! (SU-30MKI is the best of the family)
One important factor everybody who has made a comment seems to forget! Yes manuverbility is very important. Raptor wins top down for following reasons. 1) Is you cant be seen you have a amazing advantage of first shot. 2) American pilots who fly Raptors are far superior compared to Russian and or european pilots. These 2 factors alone negate manuverability.
– I have read articles about the F-22 and the Su-30’s, and Su-30’s enthusiast based superiority on manuevarability which does not even make F-22 inferior either; but the real issue in an actual air war nowadays, is who can see first and shot first. Everything becomes moot… In a war nowadays pilots would prefer exploiting their advantage if they have and they will always think of surviving the conflict & go home. So why fight in fair dogfight if you can avoid it.
- F-22 will not be put in service if it is not worth it’s cost and it is not necessary. It’s predecessors, the F-15 & F-16 has already out-lived its usefulness, although no any fighter planes have really bested it in actual combat. But they are now old planes which needs replacement, and it’s replacement must be better. The cost in the development of the F-22 & with the U.S air forces tradition for air superiority will never tolerate such a proud history be tarnished by an unreliable replacement.
The issue on manueverability is a stuff for air show but not for real air superioty combat - that is to wipe out the enemey threat from both the air and land and sea. That is how I understand the need for being able to see first and shot first before being detected. Actuallt the stunts of the both the Su-37 & F-22 proves nothing because for them to entertain the enthusiast it has to fly quite slow to be seen. But if stealthiness is the issue, they should not be seen - correct me if I am wrong.
I love we get these comments about us learning from the russians about thrust vectoring. Dosent anyone remember the early 90’s we had the x-31(wow looks like the eurofighter), the f-15 ACTIVE(wow looks like the su-37), the f-16 matv, and the f-18 harv. With us built radars the goal is to not get into dogfights its air dominace. If it were to come down to a close in dogfight we are letting the missles do the work with helmet mounted cueing. Thrust vectoring is great for airshows but do you think an su-37 or hundreds could actually dominate any monder countrys air defenses? Not a chance they will just light up every radar screen and be sitting ducks. The f-22 will supercruise over a battle space using its sensors and stealth to get a godseye view of whats going on and send it to every asset in the area to dominate. The mair reason for thrust vectoring on the f-22 is when your crusing at 60,000 ft traditional aircraft have a much larger turning radius. When your flying 1,000 miles an hour at 60,000 ft the thrust vectoring makes this a much more efficent. But I’m not suprised to hear the russians invented thrust vectoring I think a lot of the people on hear are from the propaganda ministry and cant wait for mother russia to rise again.
sorry for the spelling errors it just makes me mad to read the Vladimir Putin Russian superiority. That man is bad news and you know he is wanting the “Good Old Days” to come back.
>early 90’s we had the x-31(wow looks like the eurofighter)
Wanna know why? Because X-31 (VECTOR program) was a joint venture between the US Navy, Germany’s defense procurement agency BWB, Boeing’s Phantom Works, and the European Aeronautic, Defense and Space Company based in Germany. EADS, the same company that built the Eurofighter.
See the left of the two flags on the tail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rockwell-MBB_X-31_vectorpaddles.jpg
The X-31 was built by Rockwell and German company Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm, which is today part of EADS.
I know that but lets be honest, who do you think bears the financial burder for every international project. ex. International Space Station. Granted, International cooperation is great but I think we have let this go way too far. This sums up the project
Program Management
An international test organization of about 110 people, managed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA—redesignated ARPA from March 1993 to 1996), conducted the flight tests at Dryden and Palmdale. NASA was responsible for flight test operations, aircraft maintenance, and research engineering after the project moved to Dryden. As the research flight program matured, the test organization declined in size to approximately 60 persons.
The X-31 was the first international experimental aircraft development program administered by a U.S government agency and was a key effort of the NATO Cooperative Research and Development Program.
The ITO director and NASA’s X-31 project manager at Dryden was Gary Trippensee.
I’m not tryinng to argue. I think that the Eurofighter is kick ass big time but when people say the europeans and americans should take vectored thrust lessons from the Russians that sould like a post right out of the Putin cheerleading section.
Eric
Aug 22nd, 2007 at 7:00 am
One important factor everybody who has made a comment seems to forget! Yes manuverbility is very important. Raptor wins top down for following reasons. 1) Is you cant be seen you have a amazing advantage of first shot. 2) American pilots who fly Raptors are far superior compared to Russian and or european pilots. These 2 factors alone negate manuverability.
- Just a note on your comments here. The F22 may well be the stealthiest of the three (indeed the EF2000 isn’t stealth at all) and i agree, that presents a major advantage in engagements from a distance (out of visual range) but in regards to the foolish and flippant comment about american pilots being superior made by this Eric character, my answer to that is that in my experience (one of unique insight) I have known very many USAF pilots and ground crew who care more about their image and ego and are thus more triggerhappy and wreckless during engagement. Compare this to the discipline and sharpness of the RAF and other european airforces. If superior means most likely to fire the first shot then you would be correct but be careful when making statements about the superiority of airforce personnel without defining in which sense you mean. I should also point out that the USAF has many fine pilots who do an excellent job alongside other NATO forces.
Here’s an awesome pic of F-22s - http://www.aviation.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?c=technology&l=on&pic=070905_f22as_02.jpg&cap=Three F-22 Raptors fly in formation. Lockheed Martin delivered the 100th F-22 to the Air Force Aug. 29 in Marietta, Ga., and the latest aircraft will be assigned to the 90th Fighter Squadron at Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska. Credit: U.S. Air Force photo/Staff Sgt. Samuel Rogers&title=U.S. Air Force Receives 100th F-22 Raptor
Hey, guys, being Russian and living in US I must say it is nicely musically arranged and stitched together Su-37 stunt. It will impress any gypsy… they like bells and vessels. But just look at it from design point and you’ll see outdated design with newly squeezed in navigation and thrust technology in it. Truly useless body style in a now days “first see - you are winner” combat. This technology will be appealing to those rogue regimes that still honor heroic suicide attacks of suicide boomers e.t.c. For them visual maneuvers is a selling point, just as everything visual…
Raptor is the choice here! Super design, super technology - super winner!
This is what makes me a proud AMERICAN.
As for the Russians, I’ll tell - you have a lot of bright heads out here, but seriously, most of them, who is not busy now stealing from it’s own people wealth are looking how to make sure they have some nice cozy place to retire in a western world. Even those who steal - all of them making provisions for the safe heaven in a “Wild West”
Dear Russian motherland - stop trying to impress Arabs, Chinese and Latin American communist - to sell them outdated arms - impress your own people by giving them freedom to speak and develop honest lives! And they will thank you with their creativity and hard work. This will bring them all happiness. Ability to sell oil and export AK47 only will produce not wealth but thieves and corrupt government ONLY!
Being a non military pilot from AMERICA I’m gonna start out with some national pride, there being we are the super power, the Russains are a mere shell of a ONCE great power including a vast airforce. The Su line is highly sophisticated technology but reppresents to me a nation to proud to rebuild there roof with a brand new concept but instead trying to keep putting a new cast on the wing of a aged, tired, and dying old bird.Other than that I like the Su its mean as hell looking something the 22 doesn’t really strike me as even though it’s going to be the best fighter plane for the next fifty years or so.As for the euro-boys well they make for a pretty good fight if they jump some Japanese F-2’s but should really be kept out of this discussion.
hiiiiii the su-27 and su-30 are realy fantastic,dont tell me the american pilots are superior than the russians and the european pilots these pilots are highly skild they are 1000tims btr than there american counterparts,come on the american pilots were outmanurd by the indian aitforce pilots during the cope india air excersice….
If “real world” dogfighting were all about performing fancy low-energy acrobatics, then I’d probably pick an SU. But since maintaining a high energy state is paramount to survival in the aerial combat arena, and that stealth offers such an overwhelming advantage (as evidenced by recent Red Flag stats of Raptor vs. F-15/16s) then this whole “which is better” question becomes moot.
Fighter Ranking:
1. Su-37
2. F/A 22 Raptor
3. EuroFighter 2000
4. Su-30
any questions?
alright why did you even put the su up once you put up the f22 and the euro no no never
Its too naive to believe that stealth gives total invulnerability, so you can just “shoot and forget”. The only real war experience modern US planes had were outdated Soviet junk in the Middle East and Kosovo, and hopefully they won’t ever have to face anything better than that.
With the availability of computers that can apply multiple various algorithms in seconds, Russians (and who knows who else) have been developing military aircraft radars with anti-stealth capability. Plus, its much easier for ground radar systems/networks to detect stealth than for the one radar on the actual airplane, therefore having a proper ground anti-stealth system and communication will be the key to deter stealth. In the end, its the whole army against another, so it doesn’t really matter whether the plane x is better than plane y.
well, isn’t it interesting!!
the usa always claimed it was the best
well, their F-15s and F-16s lost 10-0 to not the sukhois but the Mig21 bisons of the IAF .
well, the usa wants to say their mathematically challenged pilots are the best! Remember WW2 and th e jap Zeros!!!
the eurofighter came to grief in indradhanush 07: wow the RAf “taught the IAF”.
i live and work here in the usa: compete against their best brains in Medicine: and i’m not impressed
so why should it be any different in a more simplistic and poorer category of people like the pilots of the USAF?
I love when Hollywood tells us that the USA is the best!! In what???
the “world” series in baseball!!! or ” Foot ball” when no other important nation of Earth plays those sports!!!
Good. Delusional status is what we need!
u know, delusions are our bigger enemies
we in the usa are delusional
there are better air forces and better pilots
we have a mediocrity of “idiots”
wow we’re are the best!
in what?
think of this: its not the machine that wins a war: its the man / woman behind it.
Math levels in the usa are at a disgusting low: i know , my kids study here!
why math? and for an airforce jock?
think: we get data aquisition in a series of numerical inputs: from the AWACS
then, we need to feed these digits into our computer or decide mentally what these numbers mean: i.e. where is the bogey going? how quickly to intercept it.
During Cope India exercises, the USAF fed data to both us and iaf pilots simultaneously.
the indians reacted much more quickly than the usaf trained pilots who should really be at home with data from THEIR OWN AWACS operators!
Hence the 10-0 scores.
now as for the comparison of passive v/s active phased array radars etc and their dectection superiorities vis a vis each other: don’t forget the su30mki is still evolving as is the raptor.
it is only a matter of months that any advantage gained by one in electronics / countermeasures is completely negated by the other side.
Brings us back to the basics: THE PILOT.
the usaf trains redon red thanks to the lousey indoctrination of red Flag.
the indians dont use russian ground control intercepts but fly - as the USAF pilots noted- “blue on blue” - something we saw in Hollywoods Tom Cruise in ” Top Gun”.
I hope i made my point.
Hmmm… i’m not goin to pretend like i know alot about any of this which is good because that makes my logic simple. Each jet has its own advantages and will be used as to work upon those advantages. The F-22 has it’s stealth and will as I understand, will usually get the first shot, which, as i understand, is critical. But, as I understand, the F-22 is not stricktly a fighter but a small bomber and recon plane as well. I don’t believe that the F-22 was specifically designed for dog fighting but for overall use. This is the first time I have seen the other planes and they each look incredible. As for pilots, I’m sure there are extremely good pilots in each of these air forces, some better then others. The air craft and pilots are obviously all incredible, that’s why they are featured here, so it all depends on the situation if they were to ever fight one another. It wouldn’t be the same everytime and I doubt any would completly dominate. So overall this question is irrelevant and everyone can pick their favorites. I pick the F-22. Mostly because I’m an American and I like the stealth aspect. It’s good to be sneaky.
As for this character above me, I’m sorry that you seem to dislike the country you live in but there’s obiously a reason you do. I agree that our overall math skills are dissapointing but the average person does not create nor pilot a fighter jet. And I’m going to pull the, ‘There’s a reason we’re the Super Power of Super Powers.’
So any way, back to the jets, I wish I could get a ride in each.
deffinatly the eurofighter typhoon, it will kick F22 and SU-30 arse.
Wow there is nothing to decide really! There is NO jet in the world that comes even close to the F-22. It is by far #1 and soon to be #2 is the F-35. Even the F-35 can not be touched by any of these other fighter jets in the world. Anyone who says that their fighter can hang with ours is in denial and needs to come to the realization that that is simply not true. Look at it this way, the 22 has been in fights with over 5 F-15’s at a time and taken them all down with ease. The F-15 has rained as the most dominant fighter for years, why do you think the US has the title of air dominance? The 22 took them out so easily what makes anyone think their fighters even have a fighting chance? Sorry to all out there who ever have to encounter the 22 or 35 in battle…
guys, you’re missing the point.
it’s not the aircraft that wins a dog fight, it’s the man behind the machine.
usa has a problem: it’s level of education is disastrous: math and science are ignored.
the average fighter jock is not very smart.
every technological gain from one side is quickly matched - if not improved on - by the adversary.
if a mig 21 bis - a 50 yr old design - can defeat a f-15 10 out of 10 times,…. we have a problem!!!
the first dictum of combat is to never under-estimate your enemy.
every simulation in the usaf is biased heavily: they still think their mathematically and intellectually challenged men are BETTER than the rest of the world!!
my kids are straight As in the usa.
give them an indian test for their level…. oops
THINK!!!!
my medical colleagues: the best of the usa: cannot work out simple mental math problems without a calculator.
makes me cringe
it doesn’t matter what a single axis thrust vectoring F-22 can do when compared to a 2 to multi axis sukhoi 30 mki can do.
sorry,
the writing is “on the wall”.
This place smells like the palace of USA BULLSHIT.
Please, swallow your national stars and stripes pride.
When I read things like “American pilots who fly Raptors are far superior compared to Russian and or european pilots” posted by Eric, I can think of only one thing. Don’t watch so many movies!
I’m very very sure when it comes to actual skill and training specially RAF pilots and other European pilots indeed are not lowskill as you think, I even dare say they are the better ones compared to American pilots. Beeing cowboys doesn’t make American pilots good pilots. As for the discussion witch is the better fighter, I guess well never know untill some a**hole president unleashes World War 3.
first place f-22 due to its stealth technolodgy ands its state of the art avionics. 2nd place I,d say the eurofighter better tecnological advances then the russians and rivals the f-22 in agility. And 3rd the sukhoi-37 it lacks in some of the tecnolodgical advances of the f-22 and eurofighter, however in a dog fight could rival either aircraft in agility.
1 on 1 f-22 takes out any of those planes. DO that math NOOPERS 1 on 1 thos eplanes go down. so what do you do when a a group of american planes b1 stealth f-117 stealth and f-22 raptors come knocking at your door ? f-22 wins hands down. 1vs 1 or your country. lol NO WORRIES IRAN WILL be PROVING groun for raptors !
Hey Vince you sound like that next a**hole president I was talking about. Maybe not Iran but send your planes towards a country that has a military and airforce worth while and maybe you won’t sound so much like a trigger happy cowboy after some of your f-117 and f-22 get shot down. Do the math on that.
I got news for all of you who say that American pilots are not the best, and the F-22 Raptor is not the deadliest and best fighter in the world. You must be ignorant dumb asses who have their own countries pride in mind, but so am I, so I can understand how you feel. America pilots and technology have controlled the skies of every country during each war. American pilot kill ratios have been staggering. Upwards around 25 to 1, and even better during WWII and Vietnam (Who saved all of your butts from Hilter, oh yea that right) And if I am not mistaken, the only time American pilots went against Russian pilots on a consistent basis, was in Korea. I think we all know how those battles ended up. With Americans shooting down many more MIGS piloted by Russians. Look at HISTORY! Don’t worry about videos and demostrations, look at the facts. Russians are a very innovative people, who can develop fighter jets as good as the F-22, but the SU-37 and SU-30 are not it. First shot first kill ends the debate. I understand other countries have developed air defense systems, but these systems are not on par with the F-22 Raptor. This fighter is the best and will be the best for a LONG time. Maybe if we looked at the past and the performance of American technology and fighter pilots, we would all understand, HISTORY TELLS NO LIES. Most of you are a bunch of morons, supporting arguments that have never been proven. WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN OTHERS COUNTRIES GO TO WAR WITH AMERICA, THEY LOSE!!!! And I think thats been proven. The writing is on the wall, its been on the wall for along time.
P.S. - For those who say our President is a moron, I hope some terrorist attack your country and kill your citizen with commerical airlines. Its called standing up for you country and its people, not backing down like cowards, which weve seen plenty of that from the rest of you.
GOLD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!
Hey nick, indeed some of our f117’s and f22’s might get shot down, but their enemies will be gone, all gone. Better than sending our birds “toward a country that has a military and air force” why don’t you send some of those guys towards us. They’ll be wetting their pants before they get out of their briefing rooms. We were told how powerful the Iraqi military was before we kicked their buts in a matter of days. Talk is cheap. You ought to be glad your not talking German. We’ll be saving your asses again, while you maintain your elitist attitudes.
the F/A-22 is the best, no question; the best systems, thrust-vectoring, supercruise, and stealth, all combined in a highly capable design. true, many design features were cut in favor of stealth, and the plane could’ve been a lot better if it hadn’t been designed for it, but still, the Su-37 and Typhoon pale in comparison to the Raptor. hats off, to Lockheed Martin, though if the YF-23 had had TV, maybe Northrop could’ve pulled it off instead… down with the Sewer Hornet!
and as for pilot skill, we have Red Flag, the Air Force Fighter Weapons School at Nellis, and the Navy Fighter Weapons School at Fallon, better known as TopGun. these programs, coupled with elite Aggressor squadrons who fly and fight using Russian and other would-be hostile tactics, make for excellent pilot training. true, the Russians have some great pilots, and so do the Europeans, but overall American pilots beat all. and the F-117 sucks, has to fly in the dark, rain/bad weather diminishes stealthiness, and it was designed as a fighter, came out as an attack jet that can’t maneuver or fly fast at all. so much for the so-called “stealth fighter”…
forgot to mention that the Israelis tend to have the best pilots and tactics, mainly because we give them the equipment and training necessary to survive in the Mid East. great country, Israel, one of the more capable militaries in the world. plus they have the best maintenance turn-around times.
To Jonathan. Yes I can see how you guys win all wars. A tie in Korea, got your asses kicked in Vietnam and fighting a long lost causse in Irak against bearded guys with AK’s, The only real war you guys were in and that was won is WO II, and that war is mainly won by the Russians and the allround SUPERIOR NUMBERS by allied troops (not superior skill).
To Sigmeister. The Iraqi military never was powerfull. Having a very large number of untrained men available does not make a powerfull military, same goes for Iran, that your so eager to invade next.
Wonder why your country is barking to North Korea and don’t just invade them like your planning to do with Iran? Skared they might get some real help from China? Or you just gonna kick there butts as easely too you think? And by the way. The way your country tries to put preassure on some European countries and try to get things done your way for WO 2 and how you guys so called helped us. I’m cinda sorry inb some ways I don’t speak German. And by the way, your president still is a moron!
Korea was not a tie, we won in stopping communist aggression and creating an economic powerhouse in the Far East. Vietnam was political pussyfooting and interference, not an indication of American military prowess. if anything, it’s amazing our boys didn’t get their asses whooped in the first day of fighting, what with all the stupid restrictions and ROE they had to follow. and we won the WAR in Iraq, but we’re losing the occupation, and when you look at it, how many countries have been successful in occuppying a hostile country peacefully? maybe if the analysts at old Five-Sides had gotten it together and thought ahead of time in their predictions, this mess would never’ve occurred. and we won WW2, no question. American ingenuity, skill, resourcefulness made as much a difference as greater numbers, and remember that Hitler sent the bulk of his forces to stop the American/British invasion, drawing off forces from the Eastern Front. and Europe should be a little more grateful; we gave them the Marshall Plan, free of charge, and helped rebuild all of Western Europe. as for Iraq, we never should’ve gone in, we shouldn’t go into Iran or North Korea, becasue, as despicable as they are, they’re sovereign nations that we can try to reason with. although it would be a lot easier and lot less messier to just invade and get it right this time, seeing as Iran and North Korea’s only use for nuclear power is obviously military; in Iran’s case, it’s nuking Israel. and of course we’re scared of fighting with China, economic implications not withstanding. in 20 years, at their current rate of weapons modification, upgrading, and technology stealing, they’ll be able to beat us any time, anywhere, conventionally. and of course George Bush is a moron, whoever said differently? same with Putin, Musharaf, and that president of Iran i can never spell right. come to think of it, i didn’t spell Pakistan’s prez either… ^_^
pilots well I,d say every nation especially u.s, Britain, Israel and the European nations, france , germany etc have all great pilots on diff skill levels. I,ll give an example I,m from canada and they had a competion with f-18s with americans that year a canadian one the competion so I guess every country has great pilots of every skill level. fighter supremacy well thats another factor added with the pilot skill that brings the full picture in to view.
america did not save us from hitler you muppet.here is a brief history. hitler invaded poland. britain declared war becouse of that.everyone else started to get involved america did not want to help untill they got bombed there selves (pearl harbour)then the russians had the biggest part in defeating the germans. america missed 3 years of the first world war and 2 of the second world war 5 years out of a total of 10.
Yes, I remember reading that Ben. I also remember dutch, belgian, british and other pilots winning those. Is the reason for me to reply in the first place and my point exactly.
To F-14Ds Rock! Anytime, Baby! Remember the Tomcat! I don’t think it’s going to take the chinese 20 years, more like 8 to 10. Even more reason for US and EU not to argue but work togetter. We all know what can happen when a new superpower emerges.
cj first, i guess; a great portion of America DID want to get involved in the conflict erupting across the globe - President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, hamstrung by an Isolationist Congress, could only supply aid through the Lend-Lease act, but he dearly wanted to enter the war with the Allies. and after Pearl Harbor he was able to. and please keep in mind that Hitler sent most of his forces against the American/British invasion from the west, NOT the eastern Russian front. He believed that if he could stop the Western Allies, then Germany would be a little more secure (only the Eastern Front to deal with) and he could stop the Russians and negotiate on his own terms. and the actual fighting for the war began when Japan invaded Korea in the early 1900s, then in Manchuria in 1931-2. and are you forgetting all the Russian atrocities against the Germans? and vice versa?
and Nick, I agree, at this rate it probably wont take as long as 20 years; that number is 5 years old already. the problem is that the Chinese are modernizing by stealing our technology; UH-60 Blackhawk and F-16 Fighting Falcon engines, AEGIS, F-14 parts, AIM-120 AMRAAM, the list goes on. and no, this isn’t conspiracy. the pentagon and numerous other sources have confirmed this and arrested multiple arms dealers, mainly Korean and Taiwanese.
and Ben, what planes were each side flying? if the Americans were flying F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, then of course they lost, the plane is inferior to even the original Hornets, they’ve confirmed this in tests. read this:
that’ll explain all you need to know, and then some.
looks like it’s not showing… ah well, just look up “F-14D vs. F/A-18E/F”, anything to do with RADM Paul Gilchrist (ret.), since the web URL after “read this (above)” isn’t there.
The fact is indeed that Hitler send most of his troops to the western front, but also a fact is that the British and American invaders were greater in number then the Russians. Because I remember reading about the Can/Us contest. Both were flying f-18’s.
there’s a difference between the F-18 and the F/A-18, and which model was it? the A, B, C, D, E, or F? as explained in that article i listed earlier, in tests involving both F/A-18Cs and F/A-18E/Fs, the regular Hornets flew circles around the new Sewer Bugs. one pilot was quoted as saying “We outran them, we outflew them, and we ran them outa gas. I was embarrassed for them.” and the Americans didn’t have T-34s, Nick, the Russians were the ones with the massed mobile armor columns.
This has been one entertaining thread to read.
I thank all of the jingoistic idiots from all nations for granting me a good laugh over my morning coffee.
jingoistic idiots? lol, right on, man… jingoistic, and proud of it! glad we could help with your daily humor; tune in next week! lol
it’s nice to see such chauvenism - we need more of it! It’s always better to meet an enemy pilot / s who are so over confident that they cannot see the writing on the wall.
so, if the USAF fields the “best of the best, sir!” in the “best of the best aircraft” , we have nothing to fear. Right?
they could not handle MiG21s! In cope india 2005 / 6!
Go for it guys!
those weren’t MiG-21s, they were Su-30s, which mind you are way newer than the F-15C Eagles they defeated. besides, the F-15 was never intended to take on smaller, more nimble fighters like the Fishbed, except at BVR. F-16s and F/A-18s were designed for that. and it’s not just the USAF. the USN, until recently (Sewer Hornet), the Israelis, the Russians (some of ‘em), the Brits, etc. all have highly capable pilots, as do the Pakistanis, Indians, Taiwanese, South Koreans, French, Germans, Turkmen, etc.
chauvinism? nah, it’s raw patriotism and realism; deal with it.
Sorry man but I really do think the patriotism left some real damage on your realism part of your brain.
Thats the last I have to say to you!
Deal with it!
what damage? all that’s pure fact! the Su-30 IS newer than the F-15C, MiG-21’s are more nimble and harder to see than F-15’s and F-14’s, and that is one of the reasons why we have F-16’s and F/A-18’s, to augment the bigger, more expensive, more complex, and less numerous birds. realism part of my brain? what? all i said is true AND verified; DEAL WITH IT!
Verified? I’ll tell you something thats verified. That the british flew the more dangerous and close to ground missions during the gulfwar. The superior flying skills of your pilots must also be the reason why only the brits got shot down by friendly fire, because your highly capable pilots really know how to recognize friend from foe. Like that little helicopter incident during the last gulfwar, when a USAF fighter shot down a UK helicopter. The simple British reply, when did you guys LAST see an Iraqi Helicopter caught the Americans with their pants down and had no answer what so ever. Like that highly capable USAF pilot who flew right true the cables of a skilift in Switserland and killed a bunch of people. Like I said before cowboys don’t make good pilots.
geezus christ, you’d think i’d just insulted somebody… I’ve never had a bad thing to say about the brits (except their lack of supercarriers, which would’ve made the Falklands a hell of a lot easier), they have many of the best special forces, tanks, weapons, etc. true, the Brits flew low-level bomb runs in 1991 and suffered many losses as a result, and i commend them on their skill in flying through a flakstorm and still delivering their bombs on-target. Panavia Tornadoes are just as capable as (some would say more capable than) F-16’s, F/A-18’s, and FB-111’s. America has messed up in the past and present, it’s true; that helo shoot-down, the recent tank strafing, there’s a reason it’s called fog of war, it was our fault and the fault of IFF equipment, i’m not trying to justify, i’m trying to explain here. and the Iraqis DID have Mi-24 Hind gunships, which could’ve done some damage to coalition armor columns, including your beloved British Challenger 2’s. and true, American pilots have snapped wires in Italy and Switzerland, unfortunate and we should’ve (i dont know if we did, but i dont think we did) made full apologies, reparations, and punished the pilots involved and made sure regulations regarding low-level overflights of friendly territory be followed.
but you’re wrong; cowboys may not make good “politically reliable” play-by-the-book soldiers, but they usually do make for intuitive shit-hot pilots! and no, that is NOT TOPGUN talking! I have family in the military, mister!
and what did i say before that set you off? that Indian exercise thing with our F-15 squadron WAS true, the Indians were flying brand new Su-30 multi-role fighters, while the Americans had aging F-15C Eagles.
and didn’t you say that was the last you’d say to me?
DEAL WITH IT!
I gotta say, the F-22 would only maintain its airsupremacy so long as its stealth remains in full effect. The radar jamming is nice and all but so long as the Su-30 can detect the raptor it goes to hell in a big way.
The Su-30 can shoot it’s weapons with total stealth at a distance well in advance of the AIM-120, America’s longest ranging missile.
probably the most intelligent thing i’ve heard all week! in America’s quest for a stealthy hard-to-see fighter, we’ve taken away from dogfighting, load-carrying, etc. attributes, creating an aircraft that, except for stealth, systems, TV, etc., is inferior to the Su-37 and other super-fighters. but no one’s bought the Su-37 yet… we need an AIM-54 Phoenix replacement, a missile with a range exceeding 150 miles. that way we’ll stay ahead of the curve. and it would be a perfect reason to resurrect the F-14; aside from all the other reasons I’ve listed.
O F22 Raptor is the best.
From Brazil
not to say, you’re wrong or right or anything, but prove it, Souza
Yes if we ever fight a war in the space of an airshow the F22 is in trouble! Su’s and Euro Fighters look like their best feature is wowing cameras and Generals at airshows.
lol, idk, the Su-37 has TV and canards and is pretty damn maneuverable; i think the Flanker and the Raptor would be quite evenly matched, all depends on pilots, who gets the first best shot off, who makes the least mistakes, etc.
SU NO DOUBT
again, not to say you’re wrong or anything, but why? prove your point, as i honestly want to know why people think one way or the other
the first thing about opening one’s mouth is to make sure that you don’t crap in it.
Cope india 05 and 06 saw NO su30mki engagements - the indian air force banned this.
The only su30s used were the older mks - no thrust vectoring, no canards and older avionics - apparently they were forbidden from switching on their radars!!!
the usaf came to grief from both them and the MiG21 Bisons: recently upgraded mig21s.
since cope india, many third world air forces ready to mothball their mig21s have apparently approached india not only to train their pilots but to learn as to how they could defeat the US in air combat using these 50 year old aircraft.
The MKIs phase 3 apparently did not use their radars in the next - and more important - exercise INDRADHANUSH against the eurofighter Typhoon in the U.K.
Remember, the Russian - Indian fifth gen aircraft will enter service in a few years - based on a MINIMAL requirement to defeat the F-22 and F–35 in ALL scenarios.
IT IS NOT THE AIRCRAFT THAT DECIDES THE OUTCOME OF AIR COMBAT BUT THE PILOT INSIDE IT.
AND, UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU GUYS YOUR PILOTS LEAVE A LOT TO DESIRE
“[our] pilots leave a lot to be desired”? what? with TOPGUN, Red Flag, and all those other exercises the US and other nations participate in, we LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED? why do you think China got so damn scared after Desert Storm? because they saw American and British tanks ripping through Iraqi armour columns, and they saw COALITION AIRCRAFT OWNING THE SKIES!!! most of the Iraqi aircraft fled, and some were flying MiG-29 Fulcrums. now China has the Z-10, the J-10, the Type-98 tank, and a shitload of other high-tech toys…
COPE India saw younger generation Su-30 Flankers take on older F-15 Eagles, and besides, the MiG-21 is smaller, harder to see, more maneuverable, and, in upgraded variants (like the Israeli MiG-21 Lancer produced for the Romanians), is the equal of any Cold-War era fighter still fielded today; why do you think the US is making the F/A-22 Raptor, the French have the Rafale, Sweden has the Gripen, and the rest of Europe is gunning for the Ef-2000? because everybody recognizes that current front line F-15, Tornado, Viggen, etc. aircraft are TOO OLD! the entire USAF just recently grounded most of their F-15’s, and Japan and Israel followed suit, as did South Korea, because the planes are old and fatigued; eventually, newer F-15Es were allowed to fly, but the point is that these fighters are too old, and need to be replaced
not to mention the fact that Su-27 Flanker series aircraft are helluvalot more maneuverable than F-15C’s.
and no one denies the pilot determines the victory…
What does one make a fighter for?
In a combat situation there is no doubt that the Raptor could shoot down the others
before they even saw it. Supercruise without afterburners defeates Russian IRTS.
No Heat No tracking or missle lock. The non-intrusive radar lock is the greatest
advance in air combat in 50 years. You can acheive radar lock without alerting the
enemy. Simply stated if any of you DO your research you’ll find that the other vehicles
are monkeys with hammers when compared. The US kill ratio at a standing 6 to 1 will only
increase.
finally, someone who explains and argues why they actually think one is better than the others! everyone else just says “Eurofighter Rocks” and leave it at that… thanks, Broli, you made my day
lol you compare F-22 with these planes.I don’t think any of this russian junk or the EF2000 can compare with it.The only thing which the both planes are close is the manouverability of the SU and the Raptor.In every other aspect the russian junk can’t even get close to the Raptor.Guys when you will understand that russians are at least 10 years behind americans.When the americans researched the TV on their F-18 HARV,F-16 MATV,X-31 and did these manouvers like the SU-30 the russians were putting in their air force the SU-27 with its “incredible” manouver “the cobra”.I’m sorry but that’s the truth and you just have to DEAL WITH IT !
everybody here needs to remember its all about experience.experience will decide the winner in battles every country can simulate but no simulation compares with experience.the f22 will simply win because it was created by a country that has the most experience on the battlefield and knows what is needed.
raptor man theres is nothing in the world that is better than that. it is f##@ing awsome
The eurofighter and su-37 are remarkable planes but the f-22 is simply on a different playing field.
If these airplanes went against a rapter it would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight.
With its supercruise faster, its situational awarness greater, and its stealth features, which makes it resemble a bumble bee on the radar screen why would the su-37 maneuverabilty be the turning point for those of yall who think that russian plane is better?
Which by the way american pilots have proven time and time again, like in Korea and Vietnam, that simply having maneuverabilty doesn’t insure victory.
all great comments guys, and thanks for not shoving any so-called “verified fact” corrections down my throat
Right now I also want to make a few more points that have been brought up early in the blogs
The first one about WWII, America was the sole reason why we won it, the allies helped and russia played there part, but Russia only had to fight on one front America fought threw Africa, Italy, France, and into Germany which I guess this is pretty obvious. No one has mentioned the fact that we fought on the other side of the planet too, we had to take back half of the pacific from Japan which at the time had the biggest navy in history also the harshist fighters too. We ended the war
by dropping “the bomb” over Japan twice which no other country had making us the most powerful country in history, no other country played a biggest role than the United States. Beforehand Britain was barely holding off Hitler, Russia was a dirt poor country that if not for there brutal winter could have never turn the tied against Hitler by themselves.
The second one is about China somebody brought up that in 20 years it will be impossible for us to fight them in a conventional war. China is an economical nightmare, right now they have the best economy but it wont last they will crash, maybe harder than the Soviets did which ended the cold war. Our country spends more money on our military than the next 30 countries combined which includes China. There a country full of hard headed idiots who can take a country seriously when it has the greatest pollution and biggest human rights issues.
Last but not least Russia has also been good at making propaganda weapons which is exactly what the su-37 and su-47 are. There nothing more than an f-15 with more missles and more manueverabilty. The f-22 is ment to dominate these kind of conventional aircraft and it will
“[our] pilots leave a lot to be desired”? what? with TOPGUN, Red Flag, and all those other exercises the US and other nations participate in, we LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED? why do you think China got so damn scared after Desert Storm? because they saw American and British tanks ripping through Iraqi armour columns, and they saw COALITION AIRCRAFT OWNING THE SKIES!!! most of the Iraqi aircraft fled, and some were flying MiG-29 Fulcrums. now China has the Z-10, the J-10, the Type-98 tank, and a shitload of other high-tech toys…
In desert storm 2, US was fighting against a country which was crippled by more than 10 years of economic sanctions where they were denied weapons and spare parts for their tanks and planes. Do you think it was a level-playing field?
Tyler, first, i guess
you make a lot of good, correct points, many of them my own as well, but the Su-37 and -47 aren’t just propaganda toys; they’re potent strike fighters that, though they may not equal the F/A-22, are easily more capable than any F-15 in the world today. a veteran Israeli F-15E crew would be hard-pressed to beat a well-flown Russian Super Flanker in every multi-role spectrum. that said, the Raptor dominates… as to China, you are, in my well-founded, expert-backed opinion, incorrect. we may spend more than any other nation on “defense”, but guess where most of that dough ends up… i’ll give you three guesses, but you’ll only need one - IRAQ! and, to a way smaller extent, Afghanistan. so relatively little is going into R&D and the modernization of other forces not associated with Iraq that could come into play in a possible war with china. china, meanwhile, continues to increase its defense spending, while the democrats (in rhetoric) and the republicans (in tax-cuts) continue to slash defense spending in the US. China has always been a numerically superior force, and now they are modernizing fast. a lot of this game of catch-up comes from export Russian hardware and STOLEN AMERICAN MILITARY “SECRETS (not really vital to national security, but still stuff way more advanced than China would normally see)”! numbers can be beaten by technology and training, but numbers and technology together are about unstoppable. China is now equalizing the fighting power of the US, and they also already outnumber us; am i the only one here that sees something wrong with this picture? a couple of examples: multiple arms dealers have been arrested for supplying restricted non-exportable American hardware to Chinese intelligence authorities; the hardware included UH-60 Blackhawk engines, which the US has declared non-exportable. the Pentagon has confirmed that they know that chinese-paid agents are also trying to obtain F-14 Tomcat parts, AIM-120 AMRAAM’s, the AGM-165 (i think), an Air Force stealth cruise missile, and other things. Chinese ships have been seen coming out of dry dock with AEGIS copies, AEGIS of course being a complex air-defense coordination system developed during the cold war and still in use today. and one look at chinese military hardware is quite sobering; the Z-10 attack helicopter, said to be the equal of the Augusta A-129 Mangusta and South Africa’s Rooivalk, is nearing deployment, the J-10 (a Chinese Eurofighter, basically) is in squadron service, a range of Type-96 and Type-98 tanks, comparable to Russian T-80s, are in production, and the chinese have a number of Su-27 fighters, Russian submarines, and russian surface ships.
you tell me that isn’t a threat.
let’s call it the united states of Hollywood!
Topgun!!
Redflag!
fly red on red! the enemy is stupid, armed with inferior training and machines!!
love this rhetoric!
need more of this
The average US student is 2 - 3 years BEHIND their Asian counterpart and 3 yrs behind by year 22.
The average USAF pilot is similarly so and why not? Do “the best of the best sir” - oops Hollywood’s Men in Black - is not the sharpest knife in the kitchen.
The smartest American produce enters the private sector, as MDs, Engineers and Lawyers.
The left behinds join the armed forces, government service, Sherrif’s dept etc.
Very few boys joining the forces do so because of Family value and proud tradition.
Look at the instances of “friendly fire” “accidents” involving US forces! Unmatched in the world!!!
In a country where education till 18 is FREE, college graduation EASY and the possibility to improve one’s strature almost an undeniable RIGHT, people who FAIL are called “LOOSERS”!!!
Right??
So, who joins the Forces??
Unemployed Blacks, Hispanics, poor whites and foreigners trying to obtain US citizenship!
How smart are they?
And we depend on them for our safety!!!!
DREAM ON
First of all anoop you are a moron to say the least.
The U.S. military engineers are some of the smartest people in the world and not all of them come from the U.S. The military acadmies for the army, airforce, and navy are some of the hardest institutions to get into in America. On level with the Ivy league schools.
In fact when I was in high school every year the top graduate went to a military school and these people had perfect SAT scores and a near perfect average I knew cause I was friends with these kids.
The lower end of society might be the ones inlisting in the army as privates but there whole objective is to follower orders by men and women who have put the time and effort into an education.
To say that our military is stupid shows alot of ignorants on your part
In response to what f-14d rocks said about China:
Dude I can go on and on and on and on about what the U.S. has planned for the next 20 years for the military but that would take up nearly all the blog space on this website.
With what our military is creating like boeing 747’s with tactical lasers, the future force land warrior which in theory would be able to turn a soldier invisiable, brand new ship designs for the next decade, a bomber that can fly faster than mach 6 that will be ready for testing by 2012 we are leaving every other country in the dust.
Read these websites
http://www.army.mil/fcs/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/future.htm
China doesn’t have these capabilities and by the time they do what will we have? don’t kid yourself we will always be the trend setters in military technology and dominance
Let’s assume for the moment that there are three main types of engagments:
1. Tech. Here the Raptor wins by stealth and jamming. The theory is that the raptor will almost never be detected. The Raptor may or may not have better radar (please confirm) but this comes in later. However, the Su-30mki’s IRTS and EOS features can give it the advantage by providing a completely stealthy approach and attack.
2. BVR. Beyond visual range. This assumes all parties have ben detected by eachother. What really counts here is Missiles and Guidance. As far as missiles go, Russia has it pretty good. Ever since the F-14 was retired the longest ranged air-to-air missile has been the Russian Ash missile. I’m not sure whether the Ash is employed on the Su-30mki but I know the Alamo is. The Alamo has a much better range than the AIM-120 AMRAAM.
Once again, the IRST and EOS possessed by the Su-30mki gives it a stealthy launch so that helps too.
3. Dogfight. This is where it gets mucky. All craft are exceptional dogfighters, with arnament and delivery being the only applicable factors.
The R-73 Archer is the Russian Airforces main close-air-missile and is the dogfighting weapon of choice for the Su-30mki. It can be fired at extremely rough conditions (Off the boresight by almost 90*) and is very accurate (latet reports confirm more so than the AIM-9L and maybe X).
The AIM-9X Sidewinder is the American contender with off boresight firing and improved accuracy. However both these factors are rumoured to be not as profound as the R-73.
The Eurofighter will most likely use the AIM-9X or the IRIS missile which I don’t know a great deal about.
All craft are extremely well made beasts. I refuse to think one is better, for as said above it is how they are flown. A badly flown F-22 could be shot down by an ace MiG-21. The planes themselves must therefore be scrutinised surgically. If the F-22 is as stealthy as the Americans say, then it will most likely win the day. However, with a good set up the Su-30mki (or prototype -37) does have the advantage in range and delivery.
While I believe the F-22 is a fantastic plane I do believe it is vulnerable. Any countermeasure that may be produced in the near future will leave this mega-expensive plane as usefull as the F-15. For without its’ stealth that is all the F-22 really is.
One last note (soz guys), the Su-30 and EF-2000 are far cheaper than the F-22 which could provide a decisive advantage.
I’ll shut up now.
anoop, while some of what you say has factual backing, your whole argument is obviously biased against the US armed forces; why, i cannot say. according to Thomas L. Friedman’s THE WORLD IS FLAT, while Aisans and Eastern Europeans may be ahead in brainpower on average, the US continues to triumph in innovation; all the Chinese, Indians, and Polish have been able to do is copy and beat us in the workplace, but they have not beaten out American ingenuity yet, though at this rate it shouldn’t take much longer. and i denounce your arrogance and ignorance in regard to the make-up of the armed forces. you think it’s only minorities in the military? where are these facts comin’ from, Chinese People’s Talk Radio?
as to tyler, looks like we have an argument from the total other end of the spectrum. what exactly can the YAB-1 COIL Airborne Laser accomplish? it’s still in testing, and in a major conventional war it’s useless unless you want to use it to snipe other planes, something i’m not even sure is possible. it was designed to shoot down ballistic missiles. exactly what do ballistic missiles do in a conventional war? the Objective Force Warrior again is still barely past development, the DD-21 concept destroyers again aren’t even built yet, and what Mach 6 bomber? the Aurora? that’s recon, mister, and we’re not even sure that even exists. and besides, how much do you think all this costs? the navy never meets its quota of aircraft bought per year, due to costs, how do you think they can afford more than a couple of DD-21’s? our illustrious presidents keep slashing taxes and increasing spending, and right now most of that spending goes to Iraq. and have you read the whole articles you’ve listed? everything displayed is either experimental, in development, or isn’t even going to be possible for the next decade. if you look at our military NOW and in the next coupla years, we’re screwed. the navy just killed aviation for the next 20 years with the Super Hornet, which is inferior in all respects to the F-14D Super Tomcat 21, the other proposed Tomcat replacement with increased strike capability and revamped everything-avionics, fly-by-wire, the works. the super hornet is even inferior in tests to the original Hornet! we look at the air force; ok, F/A-22, a coupla squadrons of those, AND aging F-15 and F-16 fighters that have only half the performance they had 2 decades ago, B-2s that can be detected on low-frequency WW2 type radar (the Brits proved this during Desert Storm), B-1Bs i’ll give the chair force kudos for, and B-52’s, venerable and slow, good missileers but that’s about it. and as i said earlier, you look at china, you see… well, i’m not gonna type it all again, just look at my last post. i appreciate your patriotism and your bashing of anoop, but in regards to china we’ll just have to agree to disagree. if and when Taiwan is overwhelmed in the next few decades, you’ll know why.
Alex Ryan, you make good points, and i dont think anyone can disagree; the F/A-22 without stealth would be a helluvalot more capable, because its design would be more functional, and we could put more stuff on or in it. stealth isn’t totally invincible, gentlemen, the Serbs or someone proved that in 1997 (they shot down a F-117 “Stealth Fighter”-oh please, the plane couldn’t dogfight with a 747)
Alright first of all I was talking about the blackswift program in development with the airforce not aurora. It’ll probably be manless but capable of flying mach 6 into combat threw the use of scramjets which have already proven to work.
Alright first of all I was talking about the blackswift program in development with the airforce not aurora. It’ll probably be manless but capable of flying mach 6 into combat threw the use of scramjets which have already proven to work.
Of course the f-18 super hornet isn’t anything compared to the f-14 but we really don’t need the f-14 in this day and time of warfighting. If we were to fight a technological advanced culture like ours in the future the f-14 wouldn’t have much of an advantage anyway. Thats why we’re developing the f-35, for naval fleet defence, which proves that we’re not getting behind in naval air combat.
Besides right now our navy is exponentialy bigger than any other navy in the world. We have 2 aircraft carriers in place of everyother aircraft carrier in the world.
Another point is the fact that our military is trying to adapt to a fast past kind of war, which is against terrorism. If China were to become a viable threat in the future our country would change tactics and “out muscle” them if need be. Although first off we would probably never go to war with China because it might lead to a nuclear war which in that case nobody wins. China’s once shown aggression towards Taiwon we ended up sailing one of our many aircraft carriers fleets down there and guess what China backed off.
Theres no way that China will become so powerful that they would do something to piss of the U.S. and not think twice about it. They understand that its to much of an economical burden to compete with us militarly just look what happened to the Soviet Union.
I know the F-22 is more advanced on paper, but seriously all of the updates seem to be ways of pilling in technology the Raptor really doesn’t need. I think it’s a great plane but considering the Su-30MKI is seriously cheaper and in some ways quite superior, the only way the Raptor will be successful is if it’s stealth and/or jamming holds up. Both of these are measures, just waiting for countermeasures.
I think in all this what the nations of the world need is a compromise:
The Raptor is expensive, the Su-30 is a bit rough avionics wise so a compromise is in order. Let’s say a craft which has a relatively advanced radar, data-link, weapon systems and good navigation. Easy to use, that kinda thing.
Instead of filling these planes full so full technology that they become (effectively) unavailable for export. Australia really wants an air supremacy fighter but we cant buy the Raptor. A simplified Raptor or the Su-30MKI (which we cant purchase for political reasons:() would be the best thing.
Tell you what, give me a F-14!
I do think the F-22 is a great plane, but besides Stealth the plane lacks any effective improvement. I know it has better Situation Awareness and this and that but the important things have been forgotten. Missiles? Far too short-ranged!
never heard of Blackswift, i’ll look it up, but i can guarantee you it hasn’t left the drawing board… of course we need the Tomcat, Tyler, just look at how it filled the multi-role job! as an updated Super Tomcat 21, the F-14D can carry the same ordnance variety, twice the payload, range, speed, survivability, and capability as the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, currently the navy’s solution to naval aviation. the F-14 makes a great strike fighter, something we would definitely need in any future conflicts. and as to carriers, who cares about numbers, the Persian Gulf and China seas are all considered “Brownwater”, and not exactly perfect for blue water air ops, to say the least. naval combat right now depends on silence (subs), detection, and firepower. and the Chinese have a large, increasingly modernized navy, bulked up by multiple Russian vessels and subs that are perfectly suited to the shallow waters off China. and that skirmish you mentioned occurred years ago, back when china was ONLY numerically superior; now, it’s different, as i’ve explained before. and the reason the USSR fell was because they were communist as an economy. China has survived because they’re capitalist, and while in economical terms China would suffer greatly if they attack us, you have to look at it from an Asian point of view. Taiwan is technically, according to China, the 23rd Province or Chinese Taipei. in their eyes, they have every right and responsibility to invade. look at the Spratleys, nice contested oil-rich islands miles off China’s coast, in easy range of naval and air strikes. to the typical Asian, face means a lot.
and Alex Ryan makes more good points, as usual
Thanks, but I like being proved wrong. I guess I’m in a godd position here in Australia. Indonesia is our biggest threat but we would rely on America for support. Remove this and we’re smoke.
I just worry about us buying the F-35. It’s cheaper than the F-22 but it still costs a nation like ours bucket loads. It’s a great plane but it lacks the things a large and comparitively poor nation such as ours needs. Range and…cheapness.
I really wish we would buy Su-30mki’s from India or at least a couple of Su-35’s from Russia. They have an almost perfect blend for us but politics killed that one.
The F-35 would be great for a close battlefield full of sams and threats and with AWACS support. Thats what it’s built for. But Australia (and Spain?) really needs a new F/A-18 with more range, maybe stealth and better missiles. The Superhornet seems to have been build upon a thousand lies. The only thing left is the Raptor (yeah we could field around…five? ten?) or the Su-30 (which we cant buy). Gah! someone give us an alternative (which we wont listen to…like Dassault)
If you guys are interestedhave a look at this: http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/specials.htm
ah, poor austrailia. although in reality, you guys dont have much to worry about; would Indonesia ever attack you? i doubt it, and all they could field anyway would be F-16’s and a coupla Russian fighters; your F/A-18’s and (soon-to-be) F-35’s would make short work of them. although in reality the F-35 isn’t that great, it’s 80% overweight, a MiG-21 with a veteran expert pilot could take one on, assuming they could find it. the F/A-18 is a great airframe, a perfect blend of two concepts, but it’s as good as it’s gonna get; you cant improve upon it anymore, despite a valiant attempt by the Sewer Bug. now a stealth-enhanced, updated Super Tomcat 21, THAT is the perfect aircraft, at least for the USN; Australia might like it, idk, but dont buy the rafale, it’s overrated. neway, yeah, Su-30MKI’s would be great…
continuing my rant against the F-35, the plane, in short, is an inferior F/A-22, without the supercruise, TV, and systems. the plane is 80% overweight, and weight-loss measures will surely cost the plane in performance greatly. dont get me wrong, i like the “little-stealth” a lot, STOVL is a great concept, but i dont know why everyone gets so happy over the Lightning II. the plane doesn’t deserve it. there’s a reason the Air Force is buying 2000 F-35’s, and only 300 F/A-22’s. and naval aviation, as said above, is screwed for the next 20 years because of the replacement of the f-14 and the refusal to accept the F-14D Super Tomcat 21 replacement, in favor of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the F-35 Lightning II.
I agree completely! The F-35 was proposed to us as a twin-engined, all-purpose, high-tech fighter/attacker. Instead we got a single-engined piece of junk! Like I said, great for a close battlefield like say, the Gulf War or something but not really a homelad defese fighter.
I also agree that the Rafale wouldn’t have been suited for Australia (range again!) but what worries me is that the Australian military and indeed many of the world’s militaries are being squashed below arrogant political groups and leaders. Our minister for defense could’t give two Precision Guided F**ks about checking the Rafale out but I reckon our military advisors and personel would have at least had a look
Oh and one thing. I have now found a conclusive argument for the Su-27 family. The Su-34 “Platypus” is equipped with a toilet. Does the F-22? I rest my case!
Oh and from what I’ve heard (garbelled and patriotic) the F-22’s stealth is much better than the F-117’s. Still, from what I read it wasn’t a radar unit which detected and engaged the Nighthawk over bosnia, but careful placement and visual scanning performed by clever Serbian SAM units.
Oh and does anyone know about the effectiveness of IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) or Russian EOS (Electro-Optical Sighting)against the F-22? I guess supercruise and angled vector plates on the raptor might limit the first one but you never know… I saw an image showing the effective range of EOS/IRST being greater than an AIM-120…could be the tech advantage that we dont want!
Just looking back, I think we should remember we aren’t including pilot skill as a factor. We are judging the planes. We actually don’t know how good an airforce really is until they are put to combat. This is why American pilots flew the Su-30mki’s against their own F-15C’s in the evaluation.
the Su-34 has a toilet? lol! well, it is a heavy strike plane… you mean an actual like lavatory? because pilots already have relief tubes… as to IRST, doesn’t matter if afterburning or not, your engine still emits a lot of heat, especially in cold weather and/or altitude. but using burner would definitely increase the range at which you could be detected. i dont know much abo